Unveiling the Potential of Pain Reprocessing Therapy with Grete Strunz

When Grete Strunz, a remarkable therapist in pain reprocessing therapy, joined me on the show, we didn't just recount our triumphs over chronic pain—we dissected the intricacies of the mind-body synergy that led us there. As Grete narrated her pivot from a different career into healing others and overcoming her own back pain, and I opened up about my migraine battles, it became evident that stress and the pursuit of control can wield immense power over our wellbeing. We're peeling back the layers of the TMS personality, exploring why an athlete's language of self-belief is as critical as their physical training.

Embarking on a thought-provoking exploration, we confront the hurdles and prospects of introducing pain reprocessing therapy in Germany's medical landscape. Through personal anecdotes involving the medical community, Grete and I probe the transformative potential of this therapy, especially for young athletes whose mental fortitude is often overlooked. We also shed light on the profound influence that language, whether from a doctor or a coach, can imprint on an athlete's psyche and recovery journey. Tune in for an episode that transcends the typical discussion around pain, offering new perspectives on health, wellness, and the remarkable resilience of the human spirit.


About Grete:
Inspired by her own healing journey, Grete decided to share her knowledge with others. She delved deeper into her healing processes with the help of a pain reinterpretation therapist and embraced somatic tracking. Fluent in JournalSpeak, thanks to Nicole Sachs, Grete made it her mission to bring this valuable information, predominantly in English, to a German audience. To reinforce her confidence in these teachings, she pursued a career in naturopathy for psychotherapy, obtaining her qualification in January 2022. Additionally, Grete completed training as a Pain Reprocessing Therapy therapist with Alan Gordon's team, holds the Practitioner Certificate from PPDA, and looks forward to her Level 2 training at SIRPA UK.

Website: https://www.schmerzumdeuten.de/%C3%BCbermich

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/schmerzumdeuten/

Email: grete@ painumdeuten.de

Podcast Disclaimer:

The Pain-Free Podcast is presented solely for general information, education, and entertainment purposes. Any information presented in this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional diagnosis. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. As always, users should not disregard or delay obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition that they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the Pain Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, Dana Jones. I am a certified personal trainer and I'm here to help you achieve your fitness goals without pain. In each episode, I'll share tips and strategies that will help you stay safe and pain free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness and pain management. So if you're ready to learn how to stay active and pain free, then subscribe to the Pain Free Athlete Podcast today. Hi everyone and welcome to the Pain Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, Dana Jones, and I am joined today by Greta Right Did.

Speaker 2: 0:42

I get it.

Speaker 1: 0:43

Yes, hi, nice to be here, so you are also a fellow SERPA member, which is always a fantastic thing because I feel like we're all out there spreading good in the world. I guess you know who are you, what do you do, how did you run into this work?

Speaker 2: 1:05

So I've been part of the mind-body world for about nine years now. I read Dr Sarno's book and the whole new world opened up and never looked back. I'm now a certified therapist of pain reprocessing therapy in Germany. I actually come from a completely different field, but, yes, this is my path and I feel like it's my calling and this is the new path I'm supposed to be on Trying to help, trying to spread the word in German.

Speaker 1: 1:43

There's not a lot of material available in Germany in German language, and this is what I'm trying to do Now when I was poking in your biography, I noticed that you've run across a few people that I've mentioned, more specifically Alan Gordon. And how did you come across him? How did you? Because you also went through therapy right through his organization as well.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Yes, I had chronic back pain nine years ago and I then came across Dr Sarno's book and I had what you'd call a book cure from chronic back pain. But what I had a symptom imperative was insomnia, and that one lingered. And I realized when I looked back on my life that I am a TMS personality and I've had all kinds of TMS stuff in the past and I needed to do the work. It's not going to be a book cure for everything else. So I found TMS Wiki. Back then there were not that many channels, so TMS Wiki was like the place to go and I just sent him a message telling me about my journey and he referred me to Christy Whippy, which she is amazing. She became my pain therapist and helped me enormously and this is how I came in contact with the Pain Psychology Center and some years later, when they offered pain reprocessing therapy as a practitioner training, I did that virtually, so this kind of connected me to them and to purity and to serve after that as well.

Speaker 1: 3:46

That's awesome, I know. For me I started. Now that I'm reflecting back, I was probably eight years old or so and I struggled a lot with migraines. That's my core symptom. And, of course, when you talk about the TMS personality, I am to the T and for those of you who don't know, tms personality is usually like you're overachiever, everything's got to be perfect. They're the people pleasing. There's a list of probably 15 different things that fit into it, but essentially, if you get stressed by other people's behavior or being out of control, you're probably within the TMS personality range.

Speaker 1: 4:31

I was always trying to, because I grew up in an alcoholic household. I wanted to be. I didn't want to bother my parents. I wanted to make sure that everything I was doing trying to get good grades but not really liking school everything was always counterintuitive. It's like I hated school but I had to get good grades so that they wouldn't harass me. I went to college, but I really didn't want to go to college.

Speaker 1: 4:56

It was a constant, almost black and white type of argument. For a long time my belief was very black and white about pain. Was that the reason why I didn't even relate to five-year-old Dana having headaches or eight-year-old Dana having headaches. I just went from I was in a car accident that was very emotional and scary. Then that neck pain is what caused my head pain. That was a very strong belief, to the point where I spent thousands of dollars going to all these people because I knew that the one thing that you were going to do to straighten my neck or massage my neck or that magic pill was going to be the reason. It took pretty much I guess I'd equate it to addiction hitting my bottom where I was finally able to receive Sarno's work. Did you have that? What happened nine years ago that brought you to that point where you finally like because his book's been around since the 80s? Why did it take you so long to find it, I guess, or how did you find it?

Speaker 2: 6:11

I guess I had been kind of on that path, kind of moving towards it, but missing that final piece. I was like on this, let's say, a spiritual journey to myself, kind of reflecting a lot, kind of doing a lot of forgiving and journal speaking without knowing what it is, but I did not have a name for it when I started having back pain and say, in Germany you go to a doctor and they usually give you the bulge disc or some kind of disc, the generation diagnosis. I did that and I went to do different doctors and they gave me two different opinions. Nobody gave me any hope. It was as if you're living with it now.

Speaker 2: 7:08

Then I had the third appointment with a back surgery clinic planned, but I had to wait for maybe two months for it and during that time it's really serendipity Somebody had mentioned Dr Zarno's book on some podcasts, or was it a conference, I don't know. But I had ordered the book and it was on my shelf and I had not read it. While I was waiting for that appointment the third one I found the book on my shelf and I read it, and I read it in two days because I just couldn't put it away and I was nodding on every page and I was just recognizing myself on every page. And then I went to the appointment. I didn't cancel it because now I was curious what they're going to say. So I went there and he's like checking my images and my back and I was like so I have good news and I have bad news. So, okay, laid out there, I'm ready. The good news is I don't think it's a bulge disk, it's more like as if the muscles are a little bit too tense. And I'm like, of course, TMS, Dr Sarno, the muscles are tense. And the bad news is I wouldn't know what to do the surgery on.

Speaker 2: 8:32

So I know this is a satisfying reply to you and you probably don't know how to react to this, but I don't really know what we could operate or what we could do the surgery about. And I'm like okay, thank you, Bye. So I tried to tell him well, that is good news that you don't think I need the surgery. But he was like yeah, probably it's dissatisfying for you to hear this. And I'm like no, it's wonderful to hear this, but I'm really thank God that I had read Dr Sarno by then and could really do something about this reply.

Speaker 2: 9:11

I just went back home I read all his other books and my back pain was gone like within a week. I started exercising again, because exercising I had put off for that time. And then I got my insomnia and I knew we are not done yet with this topic. So this was kind of the, but I knew it was the final piece. I knew this is where I had to lend and this is now the beginning of the real work for me, and I was just so full of hopefulness for my future and I've never looked back.

Speaker 1: 9:56

So you are. You were talking about journaling and, for those of you don't know, journal speak is a term that's coined by Nicole Saxe, who's also kind of like, I guess, upper echelon of the the TMS world. Now I know, when I journaled because I've, I don't know I somebody told me to journal, I think when I was a teenager, I think, or maybe just girls do that kind of thing but I found that I always lied Because I always thought that if somebody found the journal, then they think either I was a crazy person or, you know, they'd make fun of me. And so, even when I first started journaling, I was lying. I, you know. I'd say, oh, this was a very frustrating situation, but it will be okay. Then, instead of saying like, wow, I'm super pissed off. So you said you were already doing that. So how did you know? Like, were you not afraid that people would read your journal? Or did you keep it? Did you burn it? What were you like? What were you doing?

Speaker 2: 11:00

Well, at the time when I when I didn't have a name for journals fake I I basically journaled, you know, in your journal, and I kept it and I've actually read it back and quite enjoyed it because it was oh, you are very insightful, so you can keep the stuff as well. You know, of course, you I mean, I trust my household and I've hidden it a little bit, but I, it's okay, nobody will read it. But now when I do journals speak, I rip it and throw it out. It's an exercise. I don't need to keep it. It's something that I can write as an exercise every day and come to different conclusions or come to different insights. I don't need to keep it.

Speaker 2: 11:55

But back then well, we're talking, I was 35, so there was no reason to lie anymore. Right, I kind of passed that. But I journaled, probably like with some breaks, all my life. And the interesting thing is when I became aware of TMS and neuroplasticity and TMS personality, I read my old journals when I was I started when I was 10 and I wrote my journals until I was 21 and then there was a long break. But that was so interesting because I could just see this TMS personality forming and I was like, oh girl, you had your TMS phase there. Oh that knee ache, oh that back ache. I knew exactly your anxiety or whatever I had as a teenager. So that was interesting because it kind of helped me connect with my inner child, inner creator, the 10 year old, the five year old, the 10 year old, the 15 year old, the 19 year old. So yeah, how wonderful, how new empathy.

Speaker 1: 13:10

Yeah, what a wonderful experience, though, because I don't have. I wasn't journaling back then, so there's a lot of reflection, right Is that? You kind of think and then you have a memory, and then you go back and you're like, oh, I wonder how I was when I was 10 or what it was like. And you actually have evidence of seeing, I guess, a little bit of desperation right Of that. I have something wrong with me and I don't know why. And your childlike view of situations, of how your family members reacted or what was going on in your world, like you actually have a written evidence of what you were thinking. So that's, I mean, that's extraordinary, because I believe it allows you to have an empathy at such a deep level, and I don't know if the rest of us do have that, because so you're clearly a writer, right Is that?

Speaker 2: 14:14

Yeah, I'm sure I'm a writer. Yeah, I am a writer because I used to do pen paling, so I used to writing long letters and journaling was kind of as if you know you're writing a letter to yourself, basically, yeah, so in that sense, yeah, I'm a writer.

Speaker 1: 14:37

I think that's amazing and it probably helps with the healing because of the fact that you have that reflective ability and you can do your inner child work and kind of help her along, and so all right. So nine years later and now you have mostly no symptoms, right? I mean, obviously we have pain, because we're humans and we're supposed to have pain, right, but no more chronic conditions. And you decide you're going to help the world, and so what? I mean you did the PPD course, right, and so now you're out there. So who are your like? What kind of clients are you getting, or how's your work going, or where are you progressing?

Speaker 2: 15:26

Yeah, I did my German certification two years ago so that I'm allowed to, yeah, let's say, treat sick people. For me they are not sick, they're just stuck. But yeah, those are the rules. So I did the certification and I did. We don't have a training for pain processing therapy or any neuroplasticity stuff, so I did it all in English with Surpass.

Speaker 2: 15:57

Well, now on the second level and trying to yeah, whoever is open to it, because I'm not the therapist where people who have back pain and never heard of TMS or never heard of neuroplasticity come to voluntarily. So they need to have some kind of belief, some kind of open-mindedness about this perspective, change in the perspective. So it's mostly been persons who either have read or watched and listened to something in English but would like to do it in German, or who recently are a referrer which is nice from a pain clinic, somebody who was introduced to that work in a pain clinic and wanted to explore some more. But it's mostly people who are curious about what's going about this path on their own. So there's no cooperation with doctors in that sense that they would send somebody to me. The persons will have to find me on their own. Are there?

Speaker 1: 17:24

yeah, sorry, I'm sorry. It was just because you were talking about pain clinics and I know we have some in this country but they're not as common as you would think and I know that in Europe it seems to be more of a common thing. I know that when I was considering getting off some of the drugs like a lot of the studies that I read were from pain clinics, especially in England, where they talked about essentially how to titrate somebody off of a lot of the drugs, because a lot of drugs that were given through chronic pain are so addictive and are probably very damaging. I know I had some liver value issues and with a lot of the migraine pills that needed to be cured. So is that something that's common for like around there, just getting, or, I guess, referrals from those pain clinics?

Speaker 2: 18:19

Well, these pain clinics have all their departments themselves usually, and this particular pain clinic actually also offers pain reprocessing therapy, but they offer also other kinds of psychotherapy or any kind of therapy physiotherapy, medical therapy, everything. So they kind of integrate everything, so they do everything in the house. So if there's somebody who doesn't get like a therapy place in their clinic, they might want to explore it on their own and they might end up with me, so to say, but not like there is no referral as such, unfortunately.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Well, it's, you know it's. It would be lovely to do that. See, that's something you could do. You know you could be the hub of pain reprocessing therapy for Germany.

Speaker 2: 19:29

Yeah, but the thing is I would need to. For that I need to be working with doctors who would be open to it and who would also know how to talk to the patient if they think that it's not a medical problem in that sense, structural problem in that sense, but they could be helped by me, for instance. But if the doctor tells the patient in a kind of a yeah, too direct, too straightforward way, I don't know that, you know it's a mental health issue and the patients might not receive this diagnosis or this suggestion very well and they might not want to come to me.

Speaker 1: 20:10

But if the doctor knows how to kind of communicate this option, I think that that's that's definitely the biggest piece, and I know here it's. You know, being in California, I think there's a belief that we're very crunchy, netty and and that there's a lot of understanding of this. But you know, the state is a state. So you know, you have people that kind of fall into the category of where they hear this and they go oh, that makes so much sense. And then I would say a majority of people still are like, no, I'm still going to believe them, because they're wearing the white coat or the badge.

Speaker 1: 20:49

I had an interesting interaction with my gynecologist because, you know, we were talking about treatments for me because I'm hitting that certain age, and part of the discussion was well, you know, we couldn't really put you on the pill because you have migraines. And I said, well, that's not really true. And so she's like, well, you know why not? And I said, well, it's really, you know. And I had to go in and explain like where I believe the migraines came from, and then it really had nothing to do with the medications and that you know, that's just not an option for me anymore, like I'm not going to have migraines anymore.

Speaker 1: 21:29

And she was. She started to kind of get it. And then it was interesting because then she turned around and shared that she gets this numbness down her arm and I was like, oh, that's you know. And she's like, yeah, it hurts really bad and you know.

Speaker 1: 21:44

And then and then sometimes it spreads to the other arm and she's kind of going in there and it's like you know, and I kind of like just peeked a little bit under the covers and meaning like asking some personal questions and see if she was willing to answer, and she kind of glided over some stuff because you know, she's a doctor, she doesn't need to tell me anything. But she was totally a TMS personality and she said that, like when I go home and I and I just realized like I guess I'm too much or too stressed out, so then she talks to her husband and does a bunch of stuff and then all of a sudden the pain miraculously goes away. She just waits until it comes in. So I was like, wow, that's really cool, you know, like, oh, would you think about, you know, possibly reading this book or listening to my podcast?

Speaker 1: 22:30

Yes or something you know, just trying to get it in there and she just, you know she was polite, but I think part of it was she probably thought I was freaking crazy and you know the other part of it was just that she's still a medical doctor and I think for them, you know, there's that peace right, like which side of the road do I need to fall under or fall onto because I don't want to be seen as a crackpot, right, and that would be unfortunate, right For her or anybody is to. You know you go through all this trouble to become a medical doctor and then you have people not believe you as a result of the behaviors. So it's just, I don't know, it was pretty funny and I was it. Just it kind of gave me a little hope because I think she did hear me and you know, but we'll see. I mean I don't go to the doctor anymore and that's one of the things. Like now I go when I know that I have an infection and I need a little help to get over the hump or or whatever it is, but for the most part, like I just don't go, like I did, and you know, doing this work has probably saved me a lot of money.

Speaker 1: 23:38

And I remember the first time I was like, oh, I don't know if I can afford the book, because, because I didn't have a lot of money and I was like I don't have a lot of spare money, I was like, well, you know, I think I can afford the 20 bucks for the book. And then I bought Sarno's the mind body healing prescription and that was the one I read and then I started getting the other ones from the library and doing whatever, because that one was not in the library. So what is the future for you? Like, where are you heading? What are you know? Like you've done this, you said you're on the level two training now with Serpa, so you're going to really increase your knowledge and you're going to get yourself out there. So what's next?

Speaker 2: 24:21

I have a very clear vision, let's say like this I have my, let's say my dream is to work with young athletes, or athletes in general, but especially young athletes, because I feel like in sports we are talking so much about mental training, but I'm not sure if talking about pain and why chronic pain persists is part of that conversation. I don't think that it is, but I would like to explore how much young athletes are explained or given the information about why pain persists. So why pain? Why the brain is creating the pain in the first place? I have experience from my own life. I think I brought to you when I was 15.

Speaker 2: 25:20

I had two knee surgeries because I was very avid athlete. I did light athletics six, seven times a week. I danced in a dance group additionally and I was on the road all the time doing something, being very active. My mom's a physical education teacher, so there was no other choice and I loved it. I loved the grind. I loved being with my team, with my teammates. I hated it at the same time, but I loved it. I didn't end up becoming a professional athlete I think I lacked talent for that, but I made up an ambition and determination for sure.

Speaker 2: 26:08

And when I had the first injury on my knee and I had to go in for a minor surgery, it was really a minor surgery. You were supposed to get out of the hospital the next day. But the doctor, the medical doctor, was a respected medical what do you call it like somebody who does a lot of surgeries on athletes. So his words weighed a lot and he basically told me. I asked him when can I train again? It's like, yeah, you have to. You know, a couple of months you'll have to take it easy. It's like can I run hurdles again, because I was a hurdle runner? It's like, yeah, well, we have to see. You know, can I do squats again? And he said, well, you don't need squats in your life, so you don't need to do squats. And that stuck with me for like 10 years and I still did my training.

Speaker 2: 27:10

I started training again. I switched my legs going over hurdles because, you know, I was kind of taking care of my bad knee, because now I had a bad knee at 15. And switched to long hurdles even, because then it's not so, so quick and it hurts. It's like every training it hurts, it hurts more, it hurts less. But it was always there. I was kind of, you know, wearing my brace and when I forgot it then it would hurt more. I was taping it and just a lot of like vigilance scanning. And then I like, at one point life went on and I stopped with the light athletics trainings but I was still very active, still, you know, exercising a lot and it was still hurting. I got fat cake at 19. And it's a yeah. So these words from him like don't trust your knee anymore, you have a bad knee. You should not say something like this to a 15-year-old.

Speaker 1: 28:20

No, you should have some. There's some kind of responsibility. I mean, in my other life I'm also a teacher and sometimes I'll ask my students, like you know, when did you become discouraged with education? A long time ago, it was, like you know, seventh or eighth grade, which is difficult, right, because you're 12, 13 years old and there's so many things going on, so nothing feels right. Nothing feels okay when you're in middle school here. But now it's back to like, literally, these kids are seven years old or eight years old and they're saying well, my teacher told me I would never amount to anything.

Speaker 1: 29:04

And I wonder, like you know, do you have that thought?

Speaker 1: 29:08

Like, as a professional, are you reflective in going, wow, if I say this, there's a good chance I'm going to make this true for this person.

Speaker 1: 29:16

And, you know, I think there's one thing to be said like okay, well, scientifically, you know, maybe that's true, maybe the damage was so extensive that that's not going to be a possibility for them. On the other hand, you know, words have power and we know that for what goes on in our head and, you know, by saying something like that, that really is very discouraging and there are some people that are going to listen and never do anything, ever again, and that's sad to me, that there's not a recognition. I mean, obviously he's not going to come back and try to find you and say I'm so wrong. I should have never said those things to you. But maybe not say them in the first place, like say I don't know, we'll have to see, like you know, how you do during your physical therapy and your pain should be gone by this, you know, or whatever it is. Or there should be no pain because we were preparing everything.

Speaker 2: 30:08

Yeah, and I told you that I read my diaries from when I was a teenager and I'm reading it and I'm like, oh, that's the reason why your pain was resisting, that's why you got your pain when you did. It's all over the pages, but I did not know, right, right, like you said, you know, a 15-year-old has a thousand different feelings every day and just moving from one to the other within seconds, there's just so much going on, but there's no like there's. Nothing is organized. You know, is that it so? Everything for your brain, for a 15-year-old brain, is like tiger, tiger. Tiger wants to eat me, wants to attack me, and yeah, so this is something that I really, really hope that I get to do in the future work with, also with adult athletes, because it doesn't even matter what age they are, they still get mysterious injuries, not even injuries, pain, that's you know. Just before some major competitions, all of a sudden, they get knee ache. Why let's talk about it? Why let's explore?

Speaker 1: 31:29

Because I'm terrified. Yeah, I mean, that's what happened to me is you know, I got this knee thing and it absolutely floored me, it freaked me out and I didn't have a knee thing before it and you know, the fact that it popped up before a major event was scary for me. And you know, I never I blamed everybody else for the reason oh, too much training and that and whatever. And of course, as soon as everything was done, the pain was gone.

Speaker 2: 32:02

So, like internal conflicts, conflicting feelings, conflicting thoughts, of course suppressed feelings, all repressed feelings. But the conflict, like, even as a teenager, I love it, I want to, you know, be the best, but am I good enough or I don't? Actually, the more I would rather spend time with my friends than go and spend another two hours on track and, you know, miss out on something. And as an adult as well, you know, when you're an adult, that's like when I'm going to stop or when I'm going to be good enough to win a medal or to win something, or to. You know, I train so much, but why can't I, like put it into practice what I train for every day? So, or just private life, you know conflict, the internal conflicts and private life, nobody talks about them. You have to be, like, mentally strong on the track or on the field and blend out everything that is going on in your personal life. But you know, maybe you had a fight with somebody or you were upset with somebody. It pays to see your chronic pain.

Speaker 1: 33:17

Yeah, those things definitely play a part and I feel you know, I think we all have stressors and I think the number one stressor, especially with athletes, is that comparison piece, because of the fact that we are always competing. So you know aside, and as a female you're like oh, look at her, she looks more muscular or she looks faster than me, or you know whatever. I mean, I don't know if guys do that as well. I'm sure they do to a certain extent, but there's always a comparison. And then if you don't make the comparison, then there's usually a score sheet that makes the comparison for you, say, look, you were three tenths of a second too. You know too slow, or you know you tripped over that hurdle, or you know, whatever the thing may go.

Speaker 1: 34:01

And I think that, especially when you're going into the professional athlete side of things, you have a situation where then you know who you are on the field or on the track or in your arena doesn't always go away when you go outside. And that's the balance that I don't know if anybody's figured out, like you know how you balance your relationships, how you balance possible work or things that you have to do outside of your athletic feet and of course that creates strain and you know. Then you add in just normal things like bills and money and children and whatever, and then there's all kinds of pressures from all different directions. So it's not a huge surprise that this is kind of happening. So you're going to work with young athletes and then you're going to cure everybody and then it's going to bleed over from Germany out into the world and then everybody's going to stop suffering from chronic pain Not existing.

Speaker 1: 35:00

That, yes, yes For putting that out in the world. I have people that are out doing stuff and doing things and I love it. Anyway, is there anything else that you'd like to share?

Speaker 2: 35:11

No, I'm just really excited to be talking to somebody who is an athlete, who knows athletes mind, who knows pain, the grind, the blood, sweat and tears, the wins, the losses. So it's been a real pleasure talking to you and to become a big fan of your podcast.

Speaker 1: 35:37

Thank, you very much.

Speaker 2: 35:38

Yeah, preparing for our talk and, yeah, hope to reach young souls out there who are struggling with some kind of mysterious aches and to get there to their goals, whatever it is, whether they want to do the sports or they don't want to do the sport, but as long as they are pain-free.

Speaker 1: 36:02

And how do we get in touch with you if they need to?

Speaker 2: 36:06

Yes, someone Instagram. That's going to be difficult now. I think you should just write it. I'll put the link in the show notes. German it's Schmerz um Deuten, which basically means to reprocess pain, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 36:22

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciated our talk. Thank you, dana.

Speaker 2: 36:28

Bye, bye, bye, bye.