Pain-Free Athlete's Podcast
Are you tired of feeling pain? Are you recovering from a surgery? Do you want to learn how to stay active and pain-free? I'll share tips and strategies that can help you stay safe and pain-free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness, rehabilitation and pain management.
Pain-Free Athlete's Podcast
Unveiling the Emotional Roots of Chronic Pain: A Journey with TMS
What if the root cause of your chronic pain isn't physical but deeply emotional? On this episode of the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast, I discuss a YouTube video of Dr. John Sarno's lecture. This episode is packed with insights that could be the missing link in your journey to recovery. Facing chronic pain means confronting emotional baggage head-on. Learn why being open to addressing past traumas is essential for genuine healing and hear powerful testimonials from a supportive community inspired by Dr. Sarno's wisdom. Don't miss out on this transformative conversation—remember to like and review the podcast!
Dr Sarno's lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbF2HMXtfZ4&t=3677s
Boulder Back Pain Study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2784694
Norwegian Whiplash Study:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022399913000469
2024 DJFE Triathlon Race Series
Podcast Disclaimer:
The Pain-Free Podcast is presented solely for general information, education, and entertainment purposes. Any information presented in this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional diagnosis. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. As always, users should not disregard or delay obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition that they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.
@djsfitnessevolution
Welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones. I am a certified personal trainer and I'm here to help you achieve your fitness goals without pain. In each episode, I'll share tips and strategies that will help you stay safe and pain-free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness and pain management. So if you're ready to learn how to stay active and pain-free, then subscribe to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast today. Hi everyone and welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, dana Jones, and today I thought it was a good idea to probably go back and talk about TMS and why I'm here and why I even choose to have this podcast. And, of course, whenever I think, oh yeah, I should probably do like a little origin story kind of thing, I got, well, I guess it's just easier to explain. So every morning I probably wake up about 5.15 or so and it's just, I just wake up. There's no alarm set. The alarm set for an hour later, but I wake up and so I listened to a couple of YouTube videos to get myself kind of primed for the day, or just learn something or you know, whatever maybe. So today, as I was going through my videos, so today, as I was going through my videos, I ran across a video from Dr Sarno and I thought, oh, this is cool and it's like two hours long. So I listened to it. And then I did some work this morning and was listening to it and it was kind of neat because I've never seen things with him for long periods of time, like when you look on YouTube, a lot of the clips are like eight minutes, 15 minutes or whatever, but there's never anything that's long term or even a good explanation of all the things that he's done. And, to be honest, I really didn't care because I'm like, well, I read the books. That should be good enough, and I listened to other people talk about their experiences with him, and so that kind of satisfied me at the moment. But I had some time and I thought, well, this is pretty interesting. And then I thought, wow, everybody should probably know that this video exists and it's kind of a canned video. So what I mean is that clearly, like the participants in the audience were kind of set up to help him flow with the information and whatever, I don't care, because the questions that they're asking are legitimate questions and it really does deepen your understanding of the thoughts that he's trying to make does deepen your understanding of the thoughts that he's trying to make. So anyway.
Speaker 1:So Dr John Sarno wrote quite a few books, and the one that got me to where I am right now was the Mind-Body Prescription, and when I read that book it gave me some insight about some of the chronic pain that I had been suffering from, including migraines, and then I also had been suffering from a hamstring pain I guess for less, because I don't know what it was. It just miraculously showed up during some Ironman training and then never left for a couple of years, and then it switched legs for no particular reason. And then that's when I kind of knew I was screwed, because there was just no origin for the situation to occur. There was no injury there, there was nothing that was there, and to this day my hamstring is totally fine and I don't have any issue with it. But I think it's kind of funny that it really did detract me from training.
Speaker 1:Now you know you can look at the deeper meaning, which was that Ironman training was extremely stressful, participating and competing against other athletes, even though you know if you're doing triathlon you're competing against yourself, which is complete bullshit because of the fact that you really are competing against other people, because it's obvious, right, you're out there on the road and people are either riding past you or not riding past you, or whatever the case may be. So I was under a tremendous amount of stress and it really did affect me and I didn't want to perform badly because I felt bad about you know. I don't want to. You never want to be a disappointment, right when you're participating in things, and so I put a lot of internal stress on myself. Aside from the fact of you know, when you're talking to your friends it's like how much training did you do? Oh, I did. You know 80 miles? Oh shit, you know, I only did 20, you know. And then you start comparing notes and doing all this stuff and nobody does it to make each other feel bad, but there is this innate competition that just kind of erupts from it. But anyway.
Speaker 1:So my introduction to Sarno and the mind-body prescription really made me look at my you know, quote, unquote injury and realize that it was something that was a manifestation of my fear, as opposed to something that happened that caused me to be broken, and so I kind of like him. He's an East Coast guy, he's a no bullshit guy and when I listened to this lecture, it's pretty interesting just because he's so black and white about stuff. And it's kind of cute because if you're used to it, if you're not used to it, then you're offended, because then he doesn't go into explanation, he doesn't make you feel bad, like. There's a couple of times where he's like I know I'm going to say this and people are going to feel a certain way about it. He's like and I'm not going to apologize for it, and I was like, yeah, you go, you do you, but anyway.
Speaker 1:So I wanted to kind of I've, you know, broken down the lecture because I'm a student and so I wanted to kind of break it down for you in the different sections and then kind of talk about like the key points or the key takeaways that each area had. And one of the biggest ones is like you know what happens with TMS and you know. So you have people that are there and they're talking about like you know, why is it? When I play tennis my arm doesn't hurt, but when I go to write something, then all of a sudden my carpal tunnel happens. And you know all the different things, right? They're all giving examples as you go through the the video, and so he kind of breaks down.
Speaker 1:He's like look, this is how tms shows up physically. It essentially affects everything. It affects your muscles, your nerves, your tendons and can cause widespread pain, also known as fibromyalgia, for a lot of people. Um, the root cause is not any kind of structural damage, but there are the emotional factors that he believed at the time led to oxygen deprivation, which right now is being contested. Because a lot of people are like, you know people, just when they're emotional and your emotions are stifled, they create their own muscle tension and it just happens to show up wherever there's an opportune thing, right. So you know, if my I broke my ankle 20 years ago and then I do something and then my ankle's going to hurt, now the injury itself is healed, but because I'm feeling, you know, iffy about something or have some kind of feeling that I'm not acknowledging and maybe I just don't want to do something, right, then this is how it shows up. So he views it as the brain using this to one repress rage and also to protect the body, right, because if my ankle hurts and I don't do things, then I'm not putting myself out there to do things to get hurt or to get emotionally hurt.
Speaker 1:One of the points that he brought up during this time which I thought was really interesting is that you know low back pain and leg pain, you know sciatica and stuff like that is probably 60 to 65% of the people that have any kind of issue. And if you look at statistically and of course I don't know the actual statistics, but this is what I've heard over time is that the increase in back pain has skyrocketed over the last few decades. And of course it has to do with, you know, people's jobs and the amount of tension and stress we are financially and emotionally and all that kind of stuff. But the key takeaway here is look, recognize that TMS manifests physically but really has psychological origins and that there's a need to address the emotional factors of driving the pain. You can't just go okay, the pain's not really there because it's not real. To address the emotional factors of driving the pain. You can't just go okay, the pain's not really there because it's not real, cause the reality is your brain is interpreting it as real.
Speaker 1:The second thing is like, what exactly is TMS? And you know he goes into talking about. Look, it can cause back pain, cause neck pain, it can cause migraine headaches, it can cause tension headaches and cause fibromyalgia. All these things, and a lot of them, are misdiagnosed because of the fact that a lot of the doctors just go to the source of the pain oh, your back hurts, what are you doing?
Speaker 1:You know, I was watching a video last night where this woman was kind of. It was a performative TikTok video where she was talking about going to the doctor and talking about the symptoms of perimenopause and how the doctors you know, she's like well, I've gained weight over the last you know how many years. And the doctor's like are you exercising? You know, and then you know she's like yeah, I exercise every day. And just, it was kind of like a parody about how doctors don't necessarily listen and they just kind of focus on fixing whatever thing may be. And but it always turns out, especially for women, that we're quote unquote the cause of our problem. Right, it's like we're not exercising, right, we're not. You know, we're not eating properly, we're not doing this or that, but you know.
Speaker 1:So he's basically saying there is a certain personality type that gets TMS and often these people are very driven and there's a good amount of tension that they experience, um, but there are a lot of times go getters right. You know you don't find somebody who has TMS is like chill, laid back kind of person. It's usually the high driving person who you know could have big T or little T trauma in their background and they just have this goal or drive to be better than not better than you or me, but just to improve themselves. I should say so, just understand, with that personality type and with doctors focusing on the actual source of the pain, you know, the physiological source of the pain and not the psychological source of pain.
Speaker 1:Oftentimes chronic pain does not respond to conventional treatment. So if it's TMS, you're going to hear people say I've had this for years, I've tried everything, you know all the things right. Or the worst thing that could ever happen is going to the doctor and saying I don't know what it is, you're just going to have to live with it and that absolutely sucks because nobody wants. Everybody wants a thing right, you want to like if my elbow hurts, I want to go to the doctor and I want you to see a chip in my elbow right. I want some kind of verification for the source of the pain and to have somebody tell you like, eh, you know, there's nothing I could do for you, kind of is a bummer, so that's kind of. So that's the second part.
Speaker 1:The third part he talks about what is the psychology behind it and basically he's saying you know, this is your brain. And basically he's saying you know, this is your brain, is aware of these unconscious things and they're trying to make sense of it for you. And so that's why a lot of times, like if I have a client who is hurting, I may say to them you know well what's going on in your life right now. And they go oh, nothing, you know I'm doing great. And then they list 10 things that are going sideways and then like, is it possible that you have too much on your plate right now? And then they look at you and they're like oh, maybe right. So a lot of it's unconscious, right, people don't go out and go, I'm going to pile my plate up really super high and then I'm going to get stressed, to get a headache. So then I don't have to do any of those. Things right, things right, it's just the way things end up happening.
Speaker 1:And so his thing is like you need to understand the psychological roots of pain and when you do that, then that allows you to hit that first step of recovery. So you know he wants you to reflect. He doesn't go into detail about how you should reflect on this pain, but he just talks about the fact that it's something that you should start doing. And then, you know, he mentions there's a couple of little swipes that like, well, if your doctor's aware of TMS Now, this video I don't know when it was, but it's clearly like probably eighties or so, just from the clothing that I see people wearing. So you know that not too many doctors knew about TMS at this time and probably we're not saying like hey, what are you know possible psychological causes to? You know this pain in your elbow or your foot or whatever the?
Speaker 1:The issue with it is that once you get there, right, once you have this pain, then there's a fear of experiencing more pain. Right, which is a natural response. Right, we're um, he points out we're very Pavlovian and in uh, what I'm trying to say is that it's like, you know, the bell rings, we drool, um, the elbow hurts, we don't do anything about it. Right, we're like or not do anything about it, but we avoid that pain. So if I know, you know like the whole thing, right? You know, hey doc, when I do this it hurts. Well, don't do that, right, and I think we do that to ourselves. So if it hurts then we say, okay, not doing that anymore. And then slowly, you know, your world becomes smaller because of the fact that you're trying to avoid pain and that doesn't work, right. So you have to understand that your pain is really in your brain and it's not a structural abnormality, right, and that you have to look at the emotional issues that may be behind the origin of the pain.
Speaker 1:And it was at one point he brought up the I believe it was a Norwegian study which was about whiplash, and I have talked about that before and it was something to the effect of like, when people are aware of something, they suffer from it at a higher rate. And they compared um themselves to uh, what was it? Uh, I can't remember the country now, lithuania, and they asked them, you know they got the same people, same age, you know, involved in a car accident, said where, you know, do you have neck pain? And the people in Lithuania are like no, you know, we don't have neck pain. Where are the people that are aware? Right, they go. Oh, if you get into a car accident you get whiplash, right, that's the known entity. And in Lithuania they get into a car accident and the doctor gives them a little Advil and then they go on their way and there is no expectation of neck pain or whatever. They're getting into the same amount of accidents, the severity is still the same, right, when they did the study, everything is still the same. But it's just this idea of somebody has kind of laid down the track. So the fear is already there, and add in a couple other factors and then you know, boom, you have whiplash and other people don't. So, um, you know. Anyway, going back to, like, the fear of movement.
Speaker 1:So, again, you know, the idea is that the pain is due to the TMS and not a structural abnormality, because, as we saw in the Boulder back study, there's all kinds of structural abnormalities out in people and a lot of them don't cause pain. And one specific example he gave was the fact of, like, when women are younger and they have scoliosis, they do not have any pain. As they get older, all of a sudden, they start having incredible pain and people are like, oh, we have to correct the scoliosis and his thing is like your body is extremely adaptable. That should not be a problem, it shouldn't be any pain. But what happens to women as they get older, they have children, they accept more responsibility? You know there's a pay gap that creates a lot of stress, right, economic stress. So there's a lot of stressors that are put on people that are very different and when you look at TMS, more women suffer. You know, in certain categories suffer more than men.
Speaker 1:Fibromyalgia is like definitely one. I think he said at the time and this is again, this is like 1980s he said the rate was 10 to 1 for fibromyalgia in females to males, which is insane. All right, so, um, what are the things that you can do? Right to um, get in there one, it's like just understand, unless your doctor is well-versed in TMS or has an understanding about the mind-body connection, that you're probably not going to address the root cause, they're not going to have a conversation with you about this, and that you know, based off of your personal beliefs, things are either going to get better or they're going to get worse. And that's a problem, right, because a lot of times we get, the fear creates a cycle, and I always used to explain this to doctors when I was in there.
Speaker 1:I'm like you know, because they're like, well, what happens when you get a migraine? I was like, well, I get a twinge in my head and then I go, oh, this twinge is you know, this means I'm getting a migraine. And then my head starts to hurt and I go, oh, this is going to ruin my day. And then I'm like, oh, and I'm going to get nauseous and I'm going to, and of course, I'm like, basically, menu iteming all the things that are going to happen to me. And then the fear like what I didn't know at the time is that the fear insanely increases as those symptoms start to increase, and then I get into the cycle that I can't get out, and then I feel, you know, overwhelmed, discouraged, all the things right.
Speaker 1:So what he wants you to do or start looking at, is finding ways to distract your brain from the pain. And he's saying, you know, look at other things. So, for instance, you know, if you're, if you know, doing something is going to hurt yourself. You know, cause, like a lot of times at least in the video what they were explaining. Some people are saying it's like I could do one thing and the pain is excruciating. But if I do something else, then the pain isn't even there. And a lot of times it had to do with the fact that they were working or doing something they didn't want and that when they weren't experiencing pain they were actually having some kind of joy in their life or having fun. And I think for chronic pain people, having fun is something that kind of escapes us because you're miserable and you're. You don't want to be miserable out loud, because you don't want to be a burden, so but anyway. So the takeaway there is like, don't rely on conventional treatments, right, explore the psychological roots of your pain. And a lot of times it's when does the pain show up? You know when was the first time that you saw something?
Speaker 1:And then he kind of continues on talking about how the mind holds great power over the body. It can influence pain and healing. Dr Joe Dispenza talks about how he was told he would never walk again after being in a severe accident and he believes he was able to heal his spine, his broken spine, and I mean, I don't know the guy's walking around now and he, you know, does all the things. Um, you know he's in a cycling accident, that's what the origin of his situation was. So I believe your mind can do a lot of things Right, and and we know that right, if we're terrified of something, um, we're probably going to get it right, like, oh shit, I don't want to get that cold. And then all of a sudden you get the cold, and then you're mad that you got the cold, you know. Or if you just don't even acknowledge a cold and you just kind of move along, you may not get it, but there, what he wants you to know is that there is a strength in that mind body connection and you can use that strength to overcome chronic pain. And so, you know, by doing that is what he believes is distraction. And I think that's a good idea, you know, because you know there's different ways to distract. Obviously and we've talked about those right, it's meditation, it's, you know, different types of exercise. You know something that gets you going, and you know I was.
Speaker 1:As I was watching this, I was thinking about my visit that I had when I was pregnant, and I was, I don't know, 30 something years old. I was pregnant with my daughter and I, my migraines were off the chain and one of my doctors was like I've kind of had enough, I'm sending you off to chronic pain at the local Kaiser. And so they said okay, there you go. You know, you're in chronic pain and I remember sitting there and I was in the waiting room and this gentleman is there with his like probably like four-year-old and two-year-old, and this man can't even stand and you can feel like the pain's like just dripping off him, you know, and that cause they called him up to the window and he did whatever he did and all I thought was like I don't belong here Cause I don't look like that, you know, but I still had pain and that's also, you know, that piece right Of that embarrassment of like well, my pain isn't as bad as yours, so it must not be, you know, real, or you know I can overcome it and clearly that's not that easy, but anyway. So I went to this doctor.
Speaker 1:I went to this doctor I believe her name was Dr Mulligan and she kind of laid out some stuff and it was a tough love appointment and it was kind of crazy because she was like well, how many, you know how long have you suffered migraines? And she's like you know, and I'm like, well, as long as I remember, you know, I must have been about eight years old or somewhere around. That time is when I first started suffering from them. And then she said well, you know when's the last time you had a migraine? I was like you know, probably a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1:Did you go to work? Yes, she's like do you ever take off for a migraine? No, do you have sick time? Like, are you at a job where you're able or capable of taking sick time? Yes, and you don't know, she's all, when you die, your children are going to look at your you know tombstone and say, um, you know, congratulations, you made it to the end and never used a sick day, kind of thing. And I was like, said I just, I'm sorry, I was just raised that way. Like my belief is that, you know, yes, you're suffering, but stuff, work needs to get done.
Speaker 1:And she's like, well, maybe you need to reconsider that thinking. And I was like, who's this bitch? Give me a break. So then she said I'm going to write you a prescription. I was like, okay, cool, she's going to give me good drugs, all this other stuff, and she's like the first thing I had to go to anger management and I was like what the fuck? What are you doing? And she's like you need, like she was calling me out, like she was doing mind body shit. You know, before anybody around here was doing mind body shit and she, and then I had to come back and check in with her and then we were going to see where we are and I did the anger management class. Um, and that was entertaining because I realized that I'm really super angry.
Speaker 1:So, like when Sarno talks about repressed rage, it's like I had all the rages. I had repressed rage. I was out there with the rage, I had the unrepressed rage. I mean, I was just pissed off 24 seven. So of course it was no joke that you know my head was ripping and you know, because nobody, it was just bitching. You know there was no resolution to it. I was just ruminating on all the things you know how I've been screwed over in my life, or what's wrong with you driving, or you know all the things and so there was no real resolution to that Right.
Speaker 1:So then I go to the mind body class and I'm in the class and there were people that were suffering, um you know, with cancer diagnosis, and so they had their pain as a result, and I couldn't hang, and the reality of that just scared the shit out of me, because of course I'm. You know, we're all feeling people, and sitting in a room full of people who are going to die or possibly die, is terrifying, and I did not have the emotional capacity to be able to sit in that room with them because it was just too much for me. And also there was a lot of come to Jesus moments that I didn't want to deal with because I refused to admit at that time that my brain or my body was the source of my pain. And so I bailed from the class and I was like this is bullshit, I'm out of here. And then I never went back to the doctor because why would I talk to her? Cause I really don't want to deal with her because she's full of shit and she made me do this and blah, blah, blah and whatever. So you know, all in all, 20 years later, then I deal with my shit, um, you know?
Speaker 1:So one of the things that you know he didn't talk about, but I'll talk about is that you need to be receptive to this work. You need to be ready and, like we've had guests that have talked about it before, it's like they don't want to work with you. If you're not ready, because nobody wants to debate with you whether or not this is a thing, nobody wants to. You know, listen to you argue about how your trauma was fine and you're okay, and that has nothing to do with anything, because you know what you're a human being and trauma affects everybody. And I'm not saying you got to wear it on your body as a, as a badge, but you need to be aware of the fact that it does influence who you are, how you behave, how you show up in the world right, it changes you, right, depending on the type of trauma, and there needs to be an acknowledgement of that. And if you're saying, oh, you know, whatever, my parents died when I was two and that's fine, then you're probably not dealing with stuff and you may not be ready for the work. And that's where you need to be right, as if, for you to get Sarno and for you to really acknowledge this work, you have to be able to look under your you know, look in the closet, look under the sheets, all the places, because your shit is there, you know, and until you deal with your shit is there, you know, and until you deal with your shit, that's pretty much what you're gonna have to deal with.
Speaker 1:So one final piece about this. So this and I again, I will link the, I will link the video in there, because it's a really good, I think it's a really good lecture from him. It has over 50,000 views, which is kind of crazy because you think that it would have a million views considering the information that's there, and it'll probably help a lot of people cut down on their bullshit. But anyway, there's 224 comments and the comments are insane.
Speaker 1:You know I somebody of course talked about like trying to get the this, um, you know, lecture on VHS tape, which is kind of funny, um, but most of the people are like thank you, you know, this was um, helped me relieve my nerve pain. This was um. You know, something that I dealt with in terms of. You know, the doctor told me I was never going to be able to move cause I had L4, l5 damage, and then you know all the things right, and it just goes on and on and on of all these people talking about. Thank you so much for my healing. You know this video saved my life two years ago.
Speaker 1:Thank you, you know, for this, because healing back pain, the book actually helped heal me. You know just all the things and everybody's got something. You know, none of it is all the same. It's not all headache people or back pain people. It's like all different types of pain and you know, dealing with like getting this information is enlightening. So if you're someone who really feels like I don't know I'm on the fence about this TMS stuff, but I like Dana, that's why I listened to the podcast, thank you.
Speaker 1:But honestly, you know, what I'm trying to do is open everybody's eyes and I want you to be aware of the information that's out there and you don't have to believe me, but I can tell you for myself that this is, you know, it's been life-changing and I enjoy who I am and it's not, you know, a cure-all right, because, as we know, pain is necessary, because without pain we die. But that idea of chronic pain or the fear from pain, I still have conversations with myself. You know we're doing something or whatever, and I'm feeling a little edgy. I'm safe, dana. You are so safe, you are not going to fall off this you know floor You're going to be okay.
Speaker 1:But a lot of times I do, you know, I'll just have that anxiousness that will kind of overcome, and you know, then I just need to take a couple of breaths and then just realize, like this is good, you got this, this is all right. So, anyway, that's all I have for now and I want to thank you for making it this far, because this is a long one. But I appreciate you and don't forget to like and review and I will catch you next time.
