The Revolution of Intuitive Eating and Fitness: A Conversation with AMFT Danika Munro

Ever wondered why we eat what we eat, and why we exercise how we exercise? Are our food and fitness choices really our own, or are they shaped by societal pressures and norms? I continue my conversation with AMFT, Danika Munro. Together, we explore the importance of listening to our bodies, the impact of trauma on our body perception, and how society often interferes with our relationship with food and fitness. Brace yourself for a riveting conversation that will challenge your notions about eating, drinking, and exercising. Tune in, and let’s journey together towards a healthier, happier, more self-aware you.

The body is not an apology

https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/

The body is not an apology book

https://www.amazon.com/Body-Not-Apology-Second-Self-Love-ebook/dp/B08979YRFD

NPR Article

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439#:~:text=It's%20bad%20statistics.&text=Quetelet%20is%20also%20the%20person,don't%20apply%20to%20individuals.

BMI and Racism

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/healthy-bmi-obesity-race-/2021/05/04/655390f0-ad0d-11eb-acd3-24b44a57093a_story.html

Intuitive Eating Book

https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Eating-4th-Revolutionary-Anti-Diet-ebook/dp/B084722THN/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1SORW7U1EMTV1&keywords=intuitive+eating&qid=1700856526&s=digital-text&sprefix=intuitive+eating%2Cdigital-text%2C199&sr=1-1

Contact Danika: https://www.onthemargins.us/

Podcast Disclaimer:

The Pain-Free Podcast is presented solely for general information, education, and entertainment purposes. Any information presented in this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional diagnosis. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. As always, users should not disregard or delay obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition that they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the Pain Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones. I am a certified personal trainer and I'm here to help you achieve your fitness goals without pain. In each episode, I'll share tips and strategies that will help you stay safe and pain free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness and pain management. So if you're ready to learn how to stay active and pain free, then subscribe to the Pain Free Athlete Podcast today.

Speaker 1: 0:34

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Pain Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones, so I am going to share part two with my conversation with Donica about all things body. So stay tuned and enjoy. The point of all of this is that listening to our body and listening to our needs is very important, and what I wanted to kind of do is go back to where we were talking about intuitive eating, and how hard do you think it is or, in your observation, is it for people to really tune in to their body and, kind of, where does that lead us to? If there's such a disconnection Like, how do you get that connection back and how does it play with the intuitive eating piece? Is that complicated enough or what?

Speaker 2: 1:33

Two or three part question. I mean, yeah, so just going with the idea of how do we get back to intuitive eating If we know, from eating disorder specialists, for example, that that's what we're supposed to be doing? We're supposed to be paying attention to what our bodies are telling us in terms of when to eat, how much to eat, what to eat. And yet you know, like I've tried doing intuitive, I'm trying and actively trying to do intuitive eating and what inevitably happens is that I have a bunch of automatic thoughts that come up saying, no, you can't eat this thing that you want to eat right now Because of something you know.

Speaker 2: 2:25

The media told me, something I saw in you know in social media, or a friend told me, or you know somebody who's doing the whole 30 right now, or doing keto or whatever it is. There are just endless. It's like an endless dialogue that's going about what I should and shouldn't be eating. And how do I yeah, how do I put that dialogue? Like quiet it a little bit so that I can hear what my own body is saying to eat like we do when we're little kids, right Before we're taught to not do that anymore. Part of it is mindfulness, like from what I've heard and, like I said, I'm not an expert on this, but it really is mindfulness. So actually just doing meditations can help because they force you many of them will force you to sit there and just feel, you know that sounds incredibly uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 3:27

For a lot of people it is and, to be clear, it's not for everyone. Sometimes you need to start with some moving meditations. Like it can be rough, but yeah, sitting there and just like you know, feeling the sensations, what, where do I feel tension in my body? What does hunger actually feel like? You know it's, it's. That is so. You were talking about trauma and hunger signals or just interoceptive signals. In general, one of the things that can happen is if you are constantly told that your needs aren't, aren't good or aren't right essentially like your needs need to be put aside you forget how to even perceive those needs. So like and I have a great example of this family member of mine if you ask her are you hungry? She gets frustrated because she doesn't know. She doesn't ever know. She knows as soon as she puts a bite of food in her mouth. Then she can start to sense it, but because of the like, long-term effects of ignoring her internal signals, she no longer judged that.

Speaker 1: 4:49

That's interesting I had. I was reading a story and I hit, and I can't remember where I read it, but this woman was talking about the fact and I don't know if it's in the intuitive eating book or not, but about children, you know, and she was talking about her son and said that he, you know, he was probably whatever eight months old, something like that, and so he's eating solid food and her mother was feeding her son and there was a point where he tapped out right, so he, you know, she's like, here's the choo, choo, you know whatever kind of thing, and he pursed his lips and kept them closed and then she had to know that he didn't want anymore and then his, her mother, went into, you know essentially trickery of, you know, let's go, you know, open, you know doing the whole thing that we do. And what she was saying is that this is the first time that I noticed that you're telling somebody that you don't trust their intuition, you know, and she's like, at eight months old, you're telling him, like, I know you think you're full, but you're not. So let me you know, because I think we've become obsessed with cleaning the plate. Yeah, and that is I mean, I grew up with that and that is a weird thing.

Speaker 1: 6:04

Like I remember, you know, the first time I didn't clean my plate, like, and it was, you know, a few months ago, like it wasn't. You know, well, back 20 years I was like no, literally, like I felt like I and I think also being poor, you, there is that belief that you can't waste, right, and you know, and I'm not like unhoused poor, but I am, you know of that paycheck to paycheck mode when I was younger especially, and so then every bit of food was a gift and I didn't want to waste a gift and I didn't want to seem disrespectful. So I started like shoveling, and you know, when you're in your 20s and 30s it doesn't necessarily catch up to you, but then eventually, you know when mother nature takes over and your body systems start to slow because hormones and this and that and everything else, or also from all the trauma of, you know, gaining weight, losing weight, gaining weight, losing weight. Right now it's all it's sticking to me. But the weirdness was to walk away from the plate and just to go.

Speaker 1: 7:11

You know, like I'm full and of course it's about not putting so much on your plate, probably right, like you know that goes back. You know, and I played with like, oh, I'm just using like a small plate or you know whatever. And that's all bullshit, because you can pile as much food on a small plate as you can put on a big plate. But it's really about having an understanding of your body and being okay with throwing away food or not getting yourself so much, right?

Speaker 1: 7:37

You know, I tried to teach my kids that, like, when you're going through a buffet, don't jam all the food on there, because then you're not going to eat it, you're going to throw it away and that's a waste, right? You should just get little bits and then you can go back if you want. And you know, I guess what I was teaching them without really understanding is that then you know you're full, right. If you're eating all little bits and you've finished the plate right by the time, you know we're done chatting, you're drinking a little water, you're doing whatever. The message gets sent right, I'm full, you're three quarters full right.

Speaker 1: 8:07

There's a delay as opposed to you know. For instance, if you're sitting in front of a TV and you're engrossed in a TV show or movie or whatever you're watching and you keep eating, you know the signal gets sent and it's not there.

Speaker 2: 8:20

So they're not paying attention to it. Yeah, so that's like you know what? And they call that in the intuitive eating book the unconscious eating process, right, right.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Yeah, yeah. So I mean it's. You know it's a big piece and what I'm finding, at least in my experience, is that a lot of my clients are coming with all these disconnects, right, you know, aside from the fact that I think it's more comfortable for people to actually share their trauma. You know, back when I was a kid, you know it was like stuff, that shit down, don't tell anybody you know Talk about that.

Speaker 1: 9:00

Yeah, you don't wanna be weak, you know that kind of stuff. And now people are sharing and you're hearing about like the very weird things that you know parents have done in the past with their children around food. But then I'm also seeing these because I deal with athletes. I'm seeing very extreme eating behaviors because it's the trend and so I guess you know for you, it's like, for my question for you is like how, aside from mindfulness, like how do you get back, you know, knowing how much fuel you need to you know participate, or how much fuel you need to get through your day? Like how you know, how do you know? Like you know it'd be cool if we had a little you know meter, or like, okay, you're three quarters full, that's enough.

Speaker 2: 9:46

Right. Yeah, it'd be so great if we had some sort of external message that could just tell us right, because getting back in touch with the internal message is so hard, it takes time. I think is that's and again, I wanna say I'm not an expert, but what I read in this book really really just rang true for me. And one of the things that the authors talk about is giving yourself lots of time to experiment with this, and not only so, I think it. You have to think about it as really a whole, like you know, a full process. It's not just before you eat the food, right, it's after you eat the food. How are you feeling?

Speaker 2: 10:37

One of the things they talk about is, like you know, people keep, may keep telling you like green beans are really good for you, you should eat them because they have fiber and whatever else they have in them. If green beans make you gassy and feel terrible afterwards, listen to your body, right. If there's another vegetable that makes you feel really good, eat that. And it's really just that, like giving it time to like reacquaint yourself with what makes you feel good. And they even say you know, like if there's a food that you're depriving yourself of consistently what ends up happening. There's this cycle in psychology and I think it's called like binging and restraining or something like that. Essentially, the idea is that you withhold, withhold, withhold something from yourself and then ultimately, inevitably, the craving rises during this withholding period and then at some point, you binge on whatever that is. And this can apply to so many things in life, right?

Speaker 1: 12:00

Yeah, technology.

Speaker 2: 12:02

Yeah, oh, technology. Any behavior like this is like an addiction. This is just an addiction cycle, essentially, right. You're depriving yourself, depriving yourself, depriving yourself, and then you go and you binge on the thing and then you feel guilt and shame and then you go through another cycle. And so what the authors talk about is to interrupt that cycle, for example, is to allow yourself to have whatever that food is.

Speaker 2: 12:30

You really want to eat Cheetos, always have Cheetos available. And what you'll find is, when you are doing this process of intuitive eating, you'll go and you'll eat the Cheetos, right, and the assignment is you eat the Cheetos mindfully, you enjoy them, you enjoy every bite. You taste the salt, you taste the baddiness, the cheese yeah, you had cheesiness Cheese dust, right, cheese dust, like eat all the crumbs off your hands, get that cheese dust off your index finger. Gross licking style Like eat all, enjoy the crunch, enjoy the feeling and the experience of eating that food. And usually, when you actually do that and you sit down and you enjoy the experience, the textures, the smells, you know the sounds, all of it you generally tend to eat less of the foods, but again, they never.

Speaker 2: 13:38

The hot thers always talk about it's not focused on how much you're eating, right Right. But also you know if you're not eating it consciously, what you'll notice is you'll eat a lot of it and then afterwards you'll feel yucky. Yeah right, because those foods don't make us feel good if we eat a lot of them. We eat a little bit, we feel fine, and so eventually, in this process of, like, allowing yourself to enjoy, then paying attention to how you feel afterwards, you just develop. You're developing a new relationship with food.

Speaker 1: 14:16

I think that the worst part about all of this or hearing that, because you did put it in a very nice, clean way is that our society does that with everything Like we diet, everything Like we have dry January, we have like all the like, we literally like, right, I mean it's just all like all the time, you know, and we're getting to the end of the year and I hate it because it's usually when I get the most calls, because people are like you know, new year, new me, you know kind of stuff, and it's like, oh goodness, but we've, you know, I've dealt with this with my students is that there's a lot of you know, because things are so frowned upon, right, you know, it's like if you go and eat a whole cake, people are going to judge you and they're going to look at you. So then you know that's what starts the secret eating. You know just all these things. So my kids are, you know, vaping secretly.

Speaker 1: 15:17

They're doing you know everything's the secret and I think it's like perpetuating the addiction. Yeah, absolutely, and it's. You know, there's just so many things now, because you know we're not, you know they're not allowed to have alcohols but they drink alcohol, and because it's like a small window of time that they're allowed to drink alcohol, because maybe parents are out of town or you know they're sleeping over somebody's house like they go crazy, and then you have alcohol poisoning and you're in the ER or you know.

Speaker 2: 15:48

And you know, moderation is such an underrated concept, I think, in terms of everything right, and I remember I got to say like I think my mom taught me this and I got to give her credit. I got to like call her up and let her know that I am grateful, because I don't think I've told her this before. But one of the things that she used to talk about when we were growing up was that she thought Americans were really strange around alcohol and kids, because she's I mean, my mom's Brazilian and her grandmother was an Italian immigrant to Brazil. Her grandfather was, or her, so her mom was like full blooded Italian. Her dad was like indigenous Brazilian and Portuguese and they used to have these big dinners at her grandmother's Italian, you know, her grandmother's house, italian style, and everybody would have wine.

Speaker 2: 16:47

The kids would have wine, and I mean for them, the wine was mixed with a little bit of juice, but there was no concept of this being some kind of horrific like child abuse or anything like that. It was just like we're all having wine. The kids, you know, probably shouldn't have so much alcohol, but we'll give them a little juice, and it was all just this. You know, the sense of moderation just was, you know, pervasive in her family in terms of alcohol and she noticed in the US that people were like there was like one or the other, like either you didn't drink or you were like you know, like a just having a drink every day, alcoholic in meetings, right, and you see that a lot just everywhere, in culture and in food and in technology, like you were saying.

Speaker 1: 17:39

But there's also a lack of understanding, because alcohol and I don't get along. You know, just I don't feel good when I drink a lot of it and so I don't know, it's been about probably six or seven years I made a conscious decision to not drink and the level of harassment that I receive and it's getting better now because you know, like I like the taste of beer, I just didn't like the congestion and all the crap that went along with it and I don't like being drunk. That's a whole other episode. You know, it's just, I don't like that, that feeling, and there are a lot of people that spent a lot of years convincing me that I just needed to let go or maybe I just didn't have the right alcohol, you know, and like, it's weird, like you know, there's a good amount of peer pressure that kids feel right, you know, for whatever it may be. You know sex, drugs, you know school sports, all that kind of stuff, like there's no, I thought like, oh, I'm going to cross that threshold and then people are going to leave me alone and there wasn't a stop. You know, it's like people really, you know, like because I don't know if they felt like I was holier than now because I didn't drink.

Speaker 1: 18:57

I don't know if it's because I live in wine country that people were like overtly offended that how could I live in such an area and not drink, you know, or whatever it is, but for a while there it was very uncomfortable and it made me, you know, not want to go to social things. It made me not want to, you know, necessarily. You know, socialize with people. If I did, you know, had to go somewhere, I was like, oh, I'm just going to sit off in the corner and you know, or like I felt like I had a lie and say, you know, well, you know, I would say like, oh, alcohol, and I don't get along. And then I'd let people decide. You know it was like, oh, she's got a problem, you know, and but it's okay for me not to drink if I have a problem.

Speaker 2: 19:40

Right, right, as long as you're an alcoholic in recovery, then it's okay. Right, right, then it's okay. You know it's funny that you say this because I was raised I didn't, I didn't drink consistently until I was like in my early thirties and my mom my mom, who was like preaching moderation never drank. It was a spiritual thing, and so I know exactly what you're talking about. Like every, you know, every function we ever went to was like why aren't you drinking? What's the matter? And you know it was truly just a, it was a spiritual choice at the time. But it was really easier in a lot of senses to just tell people oh, you know me and alcohol don't get along, and let them think, well, okay, she, she's in recovery, right, because then they would leave me alone, right, we're all using the same method.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Right.

Speaker 2: 20:39

Which it just goes to like, show, you know, like, if you're doomed if you do, and you're doomed if you don't, you know you can't. The messaging is so is so intense, combo, mooded Directions, right, Um, you know, just, the judgment of what we put in our bodies is constant, no matter what we're doing. You don't drink, you're uptight, you drink too much, you're an alcoholic, right, you know? Or you drink a lot and you're an alcoholic, um, yeah, I mean. And then I, you know, I've, I've seen it with junk food. Like people, you know, if you have junk food in your house, like people are like, oh, you eat that, how could you put that in your body? Right, so much judgment. And then, like you know, if I don't have any junk food and it's like you know all I have in my refrigerators vegetables people are like are you okay? Do we need to fix junk?

Speaker 1: 21:39

food. Something's wrong with you. Where's the cookies?

Speaker 2: 21:43

Oh my gosh, yeah, it doesn't matter what I have. So you know, in the end, I think this is just another reminder, paying attention to our own selves and how we feel and what makes us feel good.

Speaker 1: 21:55

There's a um I. I believe there's a certain amount of strength to be able to do that. Um, I've taken it and it's funny and, and I'll you know, I'm a member of the Allen on family groups. Um, due to being raised by alcoholics. And um, one of the most important lessons that I learned from Allen on is to mind your own business.

Speaker 1: 22:18

And I didn't realize, like, how judgy I was of everybody and everything, everything you know. Oh, you're wearing that shirt. You know stuff like that and it's like is that a concern of yours? Is that affecting your life? You know, where does that matter? In in stuff right In the world as we know it, like, how does your opinion mean anything?

Speaker 1: 22:41

And so, in practice, because now it's been, I think, almost seven years, um, in practicing that, like one, I have tremendous amounts of time. Um, because I'm not sitting around judging people. And two, like I, I it's also allowed me to create a boundary for myself. You know where I turn around and say you know that's none of your business, and I guess my hope is that you know people don't wait 50, some odd years to, you know, to set a boundary for themselves. And you know and saying, like, screw you, I can eat the cake if I want to, and you know, or whatever.

Speaker 1: 23:21

And of course, you know again because I'm on social media. There's some things I see, like um Latoya Snell is a marathoner and she's done like ultras and all this other stuff and she's heavy and she literally talks about doing the you know, new York city marathon and having people boo her and say that she had no business being out there and I'm like dude, you're standing on the side and you're giving shit to somebody who's actually in you know, because one you have to qualify, so I'm not sure if you're aware of, you know, the mental or the physical feat that you have to do to run a marathon, right Cause it's not physical.

Speaker 1: 23:57

I mean you asked me that that is definitely mental, mentally taxing and as well but just the idea of like oh, then I'm going to sit on the side and give you shit, you know, and it's like, where are we? You know, and this is obviously a very huge topic, but it's like in our society, like we have given ourselves license to insert ourselves into other people's lives. Now, if I knew her personally and she was like oh, I got this wrong, this wrong, this wrong, and you know whatever, and I'm trying to fight this, and you know, then maybe we'd have a conversation. But for me to go to a complete stranger and think that I have license to judge you out loud and I don't know if I'm, you know, if the person was doing it for a laugh or if they were just actually believing, like she had no business being out there and not knowing. Like, again, you know how you have to qualify for something like that. Like they don't just open it up the marathon to everybody else. Like you have to run a certain time.

Speaker 2: 24:57

Well, and what bugs me about that too, is there we get into the you can't win scenario, right? Because if she was sitting at home with you know, there would be tons of fat phobic comments saying you know, you should get your ass up and go, go run a marathon run around the block or whatever go do, go get some exercise.

Speaker 2: 25:18

And here is a heavy woman participating in exercise and she's getting the opposite message go back home. You know, like, like, so you can't win. You know like, this system is not set up to win in. And I think it's just, yeah like, mind your own business right, or just even just like, just giving ourselves the opportunity to notice when we're making judgments, because that's also automatic. We all were taught to judge based on, like you know like mother fatherless values like patriarchal values, right?

Speaker 2: 26:01

These systems are in our head all the time, constantly making these judgments. So then, just giving ourselves at least a minute to be like oh, that was a judgment and it was based in a lot of things that aren't actually probable. Who knows what this person's going through? Who knows what the truth about this is? I don't know, Right.

Speaker 1: 26:20

Well, and that's I mean, and that's the thing.

Speaker 1: 26:22

It's like you, when you're making those judgments, one you have no idea, like what their life has been like or whatever it could be something physically wrong with somebody, like you know there could be, you know, hormone imbalance or you know, right, all those types of things, and you know it's just mean and I think that's probably the ultimate. You know, the underlying pain for me is like damn, you guys are mean, like you know she's. She is not hurting anybody, you know, by being out there and participating in this sport. And in fact she's, you know, inspiring people like me, because then I go, oh, maybe I can give it a try. Not really, because I'm not. That's why I never was going to go for a full Ironman, because I was like I ain't doing a marathon, but at least inspire me to go work out or, you know, to do whatever, and know, you know, that there are other people like me out there, so then I can go do something and I don't have to be, you know, rail thin and you know.

Speaker 2: 27:27

And gold body. You know, like there is I really, I want to go back to the same Bernard and Chihuahua. Yes, I want to go. I want to live in a world where there is no like you go to work out, to feel good, and there is no shape in your head that you feel is going to be more worthy and more valuable and more like deserving of love.

Speaker 1: 27:53

Right, well, and that's, and ultimately right that's what it comes down to is, you know, self love, right is that? And being in touch, right, like so. If I'm in touch with myself, I know what feels good and then through that, then I'm, I'm loving myself right and I'm not going to be on the treadmill for five hours unless that feels good. Right, there are some people that I see they're out there and they're like going for it and it's like God bless you. You know you're on the road to nowhere, but you know that's something that feels good to you.

Speaker 2: 28:26

Yeah, when you're really going through a lot of mental distress, I think a lot of exercise can be great, like super regulating, and I totally, like you, know whatever you need to do. I mean, obviously, hopefully you're not doing it, not listening to your body, right. But yeah, for some folks, you know, like I had another family member right went through a terrible breakup and hadn't run in years, decided to start running and it was the thing that, like, got her through it and she, she ran a lot, she lost a lot of weight, you know, she kind of lost her appetite as well, and there are things in there too where you know should be. I hope that people are giving each other care and taking care of themselves. Yeah, do make you feel good, right?

Speaker 1: 29:21

Well, and I mean there, you know, she could have just drank herself out of her depression or into her depression or whatever. And this is what made sense to her was the whole. You know, running peace and and I think that's a big idea too for people is that you know I was watching. So there's this movie on peacock and it's called Jeannie and it's Melissa McCarthy and so she plays a Jeannie and so you know, she hasn't been out of her box in like 2000 years or something like that. And they're walking around and he's the gentleman who rubbed the box that she came out of. He's like introducing her to all the things that are currently going on.

Speaker 1: 30:02

And they go past the gym and you know I can't remember what it was, a probably plant fitness, because you know drank it their name out there. But anyway, you know there's somebody running and she's like I will avenge you, I will free you. She's like I can't believe this torture is still going on and I was like, oh damn, I'm like that's funny, you know, because there is like this medieval, you know thinking sometimes around exercise and I know a lot of people and I've talked about this before is like a lot of people view it in such a negative manner and you know there are ways to introduce exercise into your life and not have it be. You know, some medieval torture.

Speaker 2: 30:49

Yeah, that reminds me I, so I use a long time ago. Okay, this felt like another life. I was a personal trainer at a very small gym in LA. Yeah, it was really funny that I got into that, because at the interview they were like so do you even like exercise? And I was like I mean, I've always wanted to be fit and they still hired you, they still hired me.

Speaker 1: 31:13

That's amazing.

Speaker 2: 31:15

Yeah, it was like so, not my jam. And then it worked out. I loved my clients and it was fun. It was a very small community. It was a great place to be. You ever maybe shout out to a tighter you fitness studio? And in LA, nice, steve's in the great great trainer, great great man. But yeah, so it just makes me think of one of the trainers at the gym. You know, I think at one point I was just talking about how, like doing a certain amount of reps or like a certain amount of exercise was just like painful for me and I didn't like it. And one of the trainers were like you know, you're going to get to a point where you like it, you like the pain, and I was like what?

Speaker 1: 32:02

That's creepy. That's creepy shit.

Speaker 2: 32:04

Right, I was like what is? No, I don't think I'm ever going to get to that point and I don't, I mean, you know, like no shade if you do enjoy the pain. But that just wasn't my thing, you know, and it does. It sounds medieval, like this is supposed to be health and wellness. How did we get to like no pain, no gain?

Speaker 1: 32:30

Yeah, and that's, and I think the issue with that is that there that's also that polarizing atmosphere, right, is that either you're running around the gym, you know, throwing up in cans and doing whatever because you're going to have the most amazing body or feel the strongest you've ever felt in your life, or whatever, or not, Right, You're sitting on the couch eating a pound of cheese or you know whatever floats your boat kind of thing there's. You know, there's been attempts, right, Like I don't know if you remember curves back in the day which is like a woman's only gym where you had a circuit, you know, and then you just all get on the little circuit and do your thing and, of course, all that died and some places still have those little circuits. You know, for me, kind of going back to the mind, body stuff is really that concept of listening to your body and really knowing. And, you know, for my clients who have chronic pain, there's a conversation about knowing your limit and going up to the limit because, like, even in my own chronic pain journey, I made the limit too far, like I backed off the limit too far. I should say so, like I don't know if I do 10 push ups. You know, in my brain I was going to get a migraine.

Speaker 1: 33:53

So then I started off with doing eight, and then I was like, oh, I can only do six. And then eventually I was like I'm not doing push ups because I know it's going to give me a migraine. And then my body went All right, let's go. And then I'd like you're going to get migraine from squats now. And then eventually I started, you know. So there was this fear factor of not wanting to exercise because it was going to cause some physical discomfort, and I decided that all the discomfort that I was feeling in my body, regardless of where it was, was uncomfortable for me. And then I didn't want to feel any discomfort and I think there has to be a better way of, you know, like intuitive fitness.

Speaker 2: 34:36

I love it. I think you just coined a term.

Speaker 1: 34:39

There you go, like where you do you know where you go? Like I had a woman come in and she's had a knee injury and we were workout and I, you know, eventually it's like okay, I got to go basic level here and I just brought her to the ground and we did some, you know, tightening exercises, like other things. I'm like I know that it hurts. I need you to keep moving it, because the reason why it hurts is because it hasn't been moving. And she's like I hear you, and now, on a logical level that makes sense she's like but my body is screaming, please, god, don't like I'm going to get hurt.

Speaker 1: 35:17

And I said, okay, so we had to find the space to be for her to be able to do the work. And then the next week she came back and I said you know, how did the knee react to what we did? And she's like I'm totally fine and she's like and you were right that I just needed to go through it. And then I was able to kind of notch up. And I think that's something that trainers don't quite understand a lot of times is that it's kind of like teachers right, like, oh, I have curriculum I have to follow. And this is what I'm going to keep doing. We're going to keep amping it up, and but you do have to back down to make sure that everything's okay. Yeah, you know, and that's where that stupid no pain, no gain comes from.

Speaker 2: 35:54

Yeah, you know it. That actually makes me think of trauma healing to what we do, because so trauma super painful in a different way. Sometimes we can feel pain in our bodies as well.

Speaker 2: 36:06

And we often feel something in our bodies when we're going through a traumatic experience or reliving trauma. And what we do in trauma, trauma healing is something called penjolation, which is we go to the edge of discomfort, we sit with that discomfort a little bit and then we penjolate back to safety, we go back and and then we just keep going and eventually that edge of discomfort moves a little bit Right. So, yeah, it's not that there's no pain, it's just that, like you know, we shouldn't be, we got to, we got to learn the difference between, like going to the edge of our capacity and like growing from. Just, you know, going full force into a wall right, horrible pain, and re-injuring ourselves right, traumatizing ourselves, let's say and trauma healing.

Speaker 1: 37:06

So trauma is? I mean there is trauma associated with exercise. I can't even tell you how many people I've dealt with that are like in PE and as soon as I hear those words, I'm like oh God, because you know they're going to tell you some like frickin horrific story about some PE teachers that made them feel less than because they couldn't climb the rope or they couldn't run a mile under a certain amount of time, or you know whatever. And I just, I guess my question is always like what the fuck? Like what are you going to learn? Like, you know, dehumanizing people and you know, belittling people is not a motivating factor.

Speaker 2: 37:48

Yeah, yeah, you brought up PE class and like a flood of memories came back for me. I was like, oh no, don't bring me back to middle school. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:58

And it's bad. I mean it's and I'm serious. Like you know, I'm talking about 50, you know, year old women, 60 year old women are, like you know, when I was 10 years old in PE, and I'm like, Damn, why is that memory holding space in your brain? You know? Why do these people need to, you know, talk to you a certain way or whatever, to make that a thing? Like you know, I just don't, I don't understand, but that was also old school.

Speaker 2: 38:22

Yeah, that was old school for sure. I remember. You know, one of the things that really bothers me about the way at least that I was taught in PE was that there was like a standard of amount of fitness everyone was supposed to be able to reach and they had like one for boys and one for girls, and that was that, like it wasn't based on anything else but gender. And maybe you're great, I guess.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Yeah, it was age, whatever age you're at. Yeah, and you know, I was just like, Well, I I'm really flexible, but I can't do pull ups. But I feel like shit because I can't do pull ups. And they're saying I'm supposed to be able to do however many, maybe one, I don't remember. I don't even remember what the bar was, because I was like, Well, I'm not going to reach it, so I'm not going to think about it. You know, I was like, why, why is it that we have this standard that we're all supposed to reach, instead of like, let's measure what your, what your body is doing now and let's see, like, what do you want your body to be doing? And can we, can we get you there, Can we get you closer to it?

Speaker 1: 39:34

I think the issue is always time, right, you know, I only have you for how many minutes a day, how many days a week? And it's mass production of athletes, right, I mean, you know the military does it, right, schools do it, that's. It's that idea of, like, how many people can we shove through the system in a period of time and say that they're successful? And then, of course, we add in, you know, the president's fitness challenge and all that other stuff you know, again reinforcing the idea that these are certain levels that you have to hit. You know one of the things- Reach your wall.

Speaker 2: 40:10

I should be able to do what a St Bernard does.

Speaker 1: 40:14

And that St Bernard can't run a mile Right.

Speaker 2: 40:16

I'm like, okay, neither of them do what the other one does very well.

Speaker 1: 40:20

So I'm just saying Exactly, yeah, you know, and it's funny because in the army, you know there's we had the same chart, right? You know age and your ability, your gender, and every year, as you got older, the time would go down for how long you would have to run, and every year I would always come in like a few seconds before I was cut off. And I thought that was really interesting because you know you're talking about, like you know, seven, eight years of active running and doing everything else, and I got getting slower and slower and slower. And what I realized is that you know the manner in which I ran, especially as an athlete. You know, in the 80s and 90s, everything was through punishment. You know you're late, you run, you're. You know you do this, you run, and so, interestingly enough, like there's some trauma around running, you know. And now when I run, I feel like I'm in trouble.

Speaker 2: 41:21

It's like I know better, right, you know You're in better shape than me, because the only reason I ever wanted to run is if a lion was chasing me.

Speaker 1: 41:29

But you'd probably run faster than me or cause I would just run a little bit faster than you so that you would be, you know, I don't know it's too funny, but you know, it's definitely. You know, and I don't want to belittle like actual trauma, I don't, you know, it's actual trauma, the variations of trauma, right, it's yeah, trauma.

Speaker 2: 41:49

Let's just make a small note here Trauma is trauma is trauma. What trauma is is a biological, psychobiological response to a stimulus. It has nothing to do with what the stimulus was.

Speaker 1: 42:01

Right, yeah, so I'm not to belittle my trauma, but you know, definitely a different trauma, but it's still, you know, it's still affecting me. And so I have to go and decide like, well, when I've kind of made a decision of just like being done with running, cause it's just like you know, there's no need for me to do it, so why would I do it? But part of me is always like dancing on that line and like is this avoidance or is this a choice? Or is this a choice to be avoidant of the activity due to, you know, the mental I don't know congregation? I would say there's a lot of people in there that are having conversations about whether or not I should you know run and how it should look, and you know all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 42:46

So yeah, how fast you should be, and what your breathing should be like, and all the what she should be.

Speaker 1: 42:53

The committee is quite active.

Speaker 2: 42:57

I love that. I'm gonna start calling it the mental committee, yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:01

The gremlins right Is? There used to be this book that talked about the gremlins. You know all the little gremlins in your head that are doing mischief and not allowing you to be successful.

Speaker 2: 43:11

Shane Gremlins. Yeah, I think Renee Brown talks about that. Some too, yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:16

Yeah, mine was like a kids book or something. It was kind of fun. I used to read it to my daughter. Talk about not listening to the gremlins, you know. So it was kind of cool. Anyway, I you know this has been a wonderful conversation and I appreciate. You know it's like a girlfriend chat, like we're just kind of going back and like spitting back and forth about you know. Yeah we're just spitballing, yeah yeah, topics that matter to us and hopefully my listeners got something from it and I appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: 43:50

Same to you, Ms Dana. This is the start of a beautiful friendship.

Speaker 1: 43:54

That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 43:56

That movie Pase Blanca.

Speaker 1: 43:57

Huh.

Speaker 2: 43:59

Oh, I was quoting. I think I'm quoting Pase Blanca, oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 44:03

Oh yeah, I haven't watched that one in a long time, so is there a way for people to get in touch with you? Do you want them to get in touch with you?

Speaker 2: 44:12

I mean I'm working for on the margins. Yeah, I mean, if folks are interested on the margins does take private pay as well as various different forms of insurance. Now, and the best way to get in touch with me is really just by calling the number on the website. Fantastic, yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:32

So Okay, well, thank you so much for your time and we'll catch you next time.

Speaker 2: 44:38

Alrighty, I'll see you next time.