Pain-Free Athlete's Podcast
Are you tired of feeling pain? Are you recovering from a surgery? Do you want to learn how to stay active and pain-free? I'll share tips and strategies that can help you stay safe and pain-free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness, rehabilitation and pain management.
Pain-Free Athlete's Podcast
Mind-Body Healing: Overcoming Chronic Pain with Dana Jones and Jessica Webb
What if chronic pain isn't just a physical ailment, but a manifestation of repressed emotions and psychological stress? On the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast, Dana Jones shares her personal journey with Physiotherapist, Jessica Webb on Liberation Found Web Episode as they explore the emotional toll of chronic pain and the profound isolation it can cause. Inspired by Dr. John Sarno's "The Mindbody Prescription" and the Curable app, Dana reveals how acknowledging and addressing psychological stress played a crucial role in relieving physical pain. This episode is filled with valuable insights, empowering listeners to navigate their own chronic pain management journey with a renewed sense of hope and self-awareness.
Jessica's contact info:
https://liberationfound.com/about
Dana and Jessica:
https://liberationfound.com/case_studies/danas-recovery-from-migranes/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USZyz1P4ur0
2024 DJFE Triathlon Race Series
Podcast Disclaimer:
The Pain-Free Podcast is presented solely for general information, education, and entertainment purposes. Any information presented in this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional diagnosis. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. As always, users should not disregard or delay obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition that they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.
@djsfitnessevolution
Welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones. I am a certified personal trainer and I'm here to help you achieve your fitness goals without pain. In each episode, I'll share tips and strategies that will help you stay safe and pain-free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness and pain management. So if you're ready to learn how to stay active and pain-free, then subscribe to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast today. Hi everyone and welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones. This week is the 4th of July week, so I am sliding back into an interview that I conducted, or not conducted. I was a guest on Jessica Webb's Liberation Found webpage and we did an interview, and it talks about the origins of my TMS, of my TMS and the things that I'm trying to do to work toward healing and a better life for myself.
Speaker 2:So I hope you enjoy it and I'll catch you next week. Hi, Donna, thank you so much for coming Hi thank you for having me. It's lovely to talk to you again and I think what we'll probably do is jump straight into the questions, and it will be like that on the edit anyway. So thank you, and if you want me to expand on any questions, if anything doesn't seem clear to you, then please do ask.
Speaker 1:I can do that.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So, dana, can I ask first, in terms of why we're speaking today, what was the condition you feel that you have now resolved from?
Speaker 1:I would say the main condition, because there were a few that I have dialed in. Now I don't know completely resolved right, because there's moments where there's, you know, little nigglings and reminders, um, but it would be migraines wonderful, lovely.
Speaker 2:And what was your method or what did you discover that really turned that turn, that point between you feel like you were struggling with it to something that was kind of cropping up every now and again.
Speaker 1:There was a number of different methods and you know, as someone who is a seeker, when you're suffering from chronic pain, you get a little crazy. You start looking at different things, you start researching everything. You know. You go to Dr Google at two o'clock in the morning when you're not feeling well, and, um, I came across someone and I can't remember who.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a couple of different things, but I I had had an acupuncturist who had suggested that I read the book, um, the mind body prescription by dr john sarno, and I was insulted when he gave it to me and I, you know, was like I'm not reading that. Like what is he trying to say? You know was like I'm not reading that. Like what is he trying to say? You know, he's trying to fire me as a client, you know, which was totally not the case. And then in one of my you know, 2 am searchings, I found someone else say you know, this book works. And then I was led to the Curable app. And so the Curable app has a little section that has success stories, and the first story I listened to was this woman who I believe was from San Francisco, which is about an hour south of me, and she talked about how she recovered from migraines and using you know just everything right His stuff, meditation, and how she was able to cure herself. And that intrigued me. And then that's when I said I probably need to sit down and read the book.
Speaker 1:And then, once I read the book, I went, oh no, like he's talking about me. And there was one particular ailment that I had that didn't have a cause. You know, obviously the migraine is the big one that's getting your attention but I had this hamstring injury and I had had a cortisone shot in the hamstring and you know massage, acupuncture, you know chiropractic, everything to resolve it. And one morning I woke up and it was gone from the right leg and it was in the left leg and I went, oh, because it doesn't miraculously jump from hamstring to hamstring, it was clearly a mind-body ailment and that's what I really was like. Okay, Dr Sarno knows what he's talking about and I should probably start looking at these things.
Speaker 2:Thank you. And how did the migraines present for you? What were you experiencing on a day-to-day basis?
Speaker 1:Well, the earliest memory I have of my head hurting, I was probably eight years old and how it used to present was I played basketball and I wasn't very good. And I, you know, deep down now. You know 54-year-old Dana looking at little eight-year-old Dana. Dana was trying to get her dad's attention and knew that he liked basketball and so I desperately wanted to play, but I, I think I hated it because I wasn't very good at it. And, um, in new jersey, where I grew up, we have a tendency of, when it's cold outside, to cook buildings. So know, if it's 30 degrees outside, we make inside 80, so that you feel comfortable and it's horrific.
Speaker 1:And so you know, I'd be outside and everything was fine. And then we'd go inside for practice or for games or whatever, and then you add a crowd and it would just be so uncomfortably hot. And so it started with, you know, I'd feel my neck tense up and then I can kind of feel my pulse in my temple and then, you know, the jaw would clench. And then the more I ran, things would just get tighter and tighter and to the point where I would want to be subbed out because I didn't want to play. And then it got to well, I'm not going to play that much. And then I was happy sitting on the bench, and then just, and then slowly like and I didn't realize this as a little girl, I was already self-selecting, I was avoiding, you know, discomfort, right, I didn't want to put myself in a position where I was going to feel badly. And then it happened, you know, like we'd go somewhere during the summer and it'd be too warm, and then my head would start to throb, and then I would get, you know, frightened that I was going to get a migraine. And you know, of course I did because I was frightened of it and then it just kept progressing.
Speaker 1:When I got to the point where I was reading Dr Sarno's book is when I had done a stint about 15 months, every day with a migraine, and they were varying types of migraines. They were rebound headaches mixed in with regular migraines, mixed in with medication. You know just all kinds of different things. And I was just in this horrific cycle of, you know, fear, pain, fear, you know, just kind of constant and um, I was doing unhealthy things. You know I was juggling three different migraine medications at the same time, which is not recommended, and I imagine I did some damage to my liver in the process.
Speaker 1:And there was, you know it just, and I didn't, I wasn't living, and I now I have family members who are like oh, don't you remember? And I'm like Nope, you know, and I don't remember things because I was just, I was so desperately like living my day trying to get to my bed and then, when I was in bed, I would only enjoy like the first hour or so when I fell asleep, because I would always wake up at I can't remember was it 4, 23 or something like that. It was always the same time every night and I think it's when the meds ran out and I'd wake up and my head would be burning or you know, whatever the case was, and then I'd freak out because I'd go. Okay, really, it would be better if I woke up at three, because then I know I can get a couple hours sleep before I'd have to go to work and the hamstring tendon problem, the pain in the hamstring.
Speaker 2:how did that occur?
Speaker 1:What was the onset of that? I was participating in triathlon and I was comparing myself to my friends and other athletes, and I think that that became a viable excuse for me not to keep up.
Speaker 1:You know, like it's funny now because you're like well you know and at the time I didn't know that because I was still at the time when this hamstring came along, I was still suffering from migraines, and so, you know, they'd say, hey, let's go out for a 30 mile bike ride, which I really didn't want to do. And because I didn't want to ride with them, because I felt, like you know, I wasn't going to be able to keep up. And you know like bicycling is weird, you know, because of the fact that you do get left behind and there is an abandonment aspect of it. And then there's this weird like emotional thing that happens when you're abandoned, you know, aspect of it. And then there's this weird like emotional thing that happens when you're abandoned right, like, especially if it's hot or something, because then you're suffering and then you want to cry, but then you don't want to cry and then you're like, why am I being so stupid? I just need to just keep peddling and I'll be fine. They're waiting for me up there, you know, whatever.
Speaker 1:And then you know, you go into self-deprecation where you're like, well, self-deprecation, where you're like, well, they're always waiting for you. And this is, you know, like, should you really be doing this? And then, miraculously, I get a hamstring thing, and then that becomes a great excuse well, no, I'm gonna rest my hamstring today, or whatever. And then I slowly cycled my. You know, I cycled myself out of doing triathlon and doing group rides because of the fact that I didn't want to ride and be embarrassed, I think, when it came down to that I didn't want to ride and be embarrassed.
Speaker 2:I think when it came down to so, there wasn't like a sudden feeling of, oh, there's a sudden injury. Was it a gradual?
Speaker 1:process of increasing discomfort. I believe it just showed up, you know, and I've had that happen. I, initially, before I went on the 15 months with a migraine, I had a moment where I was sitting on the couch and I had to get up to go to the bathroom. And I stood up and you know, my back went out right. You know that, you hear, and you know I had this surge of pain that takes your breath away and I dropped to my knees and I had to lay there for a moment and then, of course, I'm like I really need to use the bathroom and I was alone, so like I guess I could crawl to the bathroom, you know. So then I crawled to the bathroom, but then I couldn't play softball, which I enjoy playing, and all these things, and it just felt like this moment where, you know, it's like if I just, you know, cracked my back, which is obviously, like you know, a fallacy that everything would be, you know, the tension would be released and I would be fine, and it didn't go away. And then I got like I you know, special massages and then kind of dealing with it and eventually it kind of subsided. But again, it was about being alone because I had just gone through a separation and I was dealing with, you know, splitting custody of children and I, you know, as much as you want to be alone because you want to be free of the relationship, the other part of like this extreme loneliness and not being able to see your children for the first time, you know, because you kind of take it for granted that you see them every day and then having that moment where you don't see them, it becomes very emotionally upsetting. And you know, but I didn't click right, I didn't put that in there, I was just like, oh, I did something to my back and then I think eventually that kind of went into the hamstring. And you know, again, things travel when you're dealing with mind, body, stuff. And it's what I have found is that my body will do the things it needs to do to get my attention.
Speaker 1:And when I had nausea as well, which was a very prominent symptom, and then that was something that I apparently wasn't getting my attention enough, even though I spent like a majority of my day managing it then that's when the migraines came on. So it's been a gradual thing. It was like, you know, headaches. Oh, you already know how to deal with that. Oh, we'll give you a back injury, okay, you know whatever. Oh, here's some nausea. And then, oh, okay, well, how about we give you a migraine every day for a year and a half and see how you do? Or a year and a few months?
Speaker 2:Now you were getting really clear like listen listen Right?
Speaker 1:Well, no, I wasn't, and that's why it kept happening.
Speaker 1:I didn't know what I was. I couldn't tell you what was happening, you know, and that's the thing it's like I didn't like. Now I know because I've journaled and I've done work and I've done research and I on me and I've reflected a lot, you know, and I know that you know, when I have a pain in my shoulder blade it's because I'm thinking about or dealing with things that happened from my childhood and my mother and a lot of times when it's my hamstring stuff, sometimes it has to do with my children, and I think that's hysterical because it's like. You know, I have a pain in my ass. Sometimes I feel like they're a pain in my ass. I love them dearly, but sometimes it's hard for me as an adult to kind of navigate. You know the parent-child relationships, you know, and also, admitting that you know and I think that's where all of this comes down to is that you know, if little eight-year-old Dana either never played basketball or just said I'm out, you know, I don't know if my head would have hurt at those times.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, if I was uncomfortable with the triathlon, you know, and maybe found a group that was more to my ability, then maybe I would have felt more accepted and it wouldn't have been something that um made me feel bad about who I was, and but that takes a lot of insight and I think that when you're caught in that, um like perpetual fight or flight situation, um, every everything feels like everybody's against you. You know, I was always mad at my body, right? Why are you doing this to me? You ruined it again. I can't go hang out with my friends, or I can't go to the movies, or, you know, I can't enjoy things Like.
Speaker 1:I remember one time, my family, we were going to see Black Panther and I couldn't hang, you know, and it was such an event, right, black superheroes, and how wonderful it is to see, you know, us represented on the big screen, and I was so nauseous going to it and I don't know why. I think it was just the. I don't know why. I think it was just the. I don't know it was probably excitement, but because I was in a state of fight or flight, I couldn't interpret it that way, and you know so. Then I end up taking drugs and I slept, like you know, halfway through the movie and and then I kept missing it and you know the kids are like that was a great scene. I was like I don't know what you're talking about because I didn't know so yeah, you could watch it again.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've watched it like four times to try to like actually get it now. It's too funny awesome, um.
Speaker 2:so I'm gonna circle back to uh, to curable, and probably more curable than than Dr Sarno, but I think the answer probably encompasses both parts In your understanding. How do you feel, how do you understand that curable and Dr Sarno's method works?
Speaker 1:Well, the way that I see it working is one is, you're getting this information and I think, as a chronic pain sufferer, we're getting information that sounds one empathetic, which is not what we always get at the doctor's office. And two, you know, because they have the little meditations in there and and those kinds of things, so that as you're laying there at three o'clock in the morning crying yourself to sleep or trying to cry yourself to sleep, you can listen to these meditations. And you're laying there at three o'clock in the morning crying yourself to sleep or trying to cry yourself to sleep, you can listen to these meditations and you're hearing this and, um, you know one particular meditation and I don't remember the name of it, but it was what connected me to dare and barry mcdonough was the whole tightening of your body. You know, and it's like my head can't hurt when I'm concentrating on squeezing and releasing my fist and squeezing and releasing my arm and squeezing and releasing my thigh, and, and you know, because as you cycle through that type of meditation, you can't focus on the sensations that kind of brought you there in the first place, and I would say, probably nine times out of 10 when I did that on that app, I actually became like an addiction, like I'd wake up, feel like crap and then I'm like, all right, go into curable and go to the curable, and then I'd go to that meditation and do it and then I would be okay, like not fantastic, but okay, like it was.
Speaker 1:If anything, it gave me the peak, you know, through the shade so I can see like, oh, there is sunshine on the other side and that you know, this is not something that you know like I have to listen to my neurologist is like it's just the way you're going to have to live your life, which is very, you know, sad, I guess, and very defeating. You know, when you have that, when you have somebody who you know my belief is that I put a lot of faith in you as a medical professional and you're kind of telling me like, oh well, you know, my belief is that I put a lot of faith in you as a medical professional and you're kind of telling me like, oh well, you know. Sorry, you know, and I think a lot of us run into that is that people don't understand and and and I don't know, I mean I'm going to get a little controversial. I don't know if doctors continue to learn. You know, I know, like as a as a fitness trainer, I have CEUs that I need to do right, I need to do my continuing education, and I know other professions need to as well, and maybe they do and maybe it just keeps them in their pocket of comfort zone.
Speaker 1:But I feel like the mind, body, stuff has become such a thing that they should probably consider making it part of their practice so that you don't have to wait 30, some odd years before you feel like you're being heard. You know, and that's weird because it's like I wasn't. You know, it's an app, so it's not. There's no interaction with me, aside from me following along, which is probably what I was capable of doing at the time, just because I wasn't really completely there. But just having a soothing, caring, compassionate voice was helpful. And, plus, you know Barry is Scottish, scottish or Irish, I can't remember, but I love the accent and it felt very like this is wonderful. So listening to him go through it was very, it was nice.
Speaker 2:So if I can explain what I understand about the answer is that on the one hand, we've got the education side of things. Is that we're having someone tell us something that we've not been told in particularly a medical perspective. On the the other side, we've got the meditation side, which helps you to to find that gap within the symptoms, kind of the breathing space. And on the other side, we've got that fact that we're following along with a, with a caring, uh, person that makes us feel safe but we're not directly with somebody and we haven't had to kind of invest too much into the, into the experience. Is that my um am I understood your answer correctly?
Speaker 1:no, that is absolutely correct. And you know and the last piece is very important because of the fact that the investment is always an issue for us, right? Because if you talk to any chronic pain sufferer, they have spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on things or, you know, made an appointment and there's nothing worse than making an appointment and then not being able to go to the appointment because you're not feeling well or or whatever, and then being concerned like, oh, I spent that money and now I've wasted that money or you know whatever. So it, even though it's a small investment, right, cause they do have, you know, a free section and I ended up getting the lifetime, cause I figured, you know, I'm going to stick with this and it's enjoyable to go back and check and, you know, do different things on there. Um, the, you know, lifetime investment is a lot cheaper and a lot safer than connecting with a live practitioner. I would say.
Speaker 2:Thank you. From when you started Curable, how long did it take you to start to notice a difference, or say a significant change, in your symptoms?
Speaker 1:I would say it took about three months, you know, because it was. I can feel myself calming down like immediately when I did it, but because I was terrified for so long, um, it would only last like a few minutes or you know enough to allow me to fall back to sleep, and then I'd wake up and still feel kind of crappy. Um, but probably I can't remember I was I was talking to a girlfriend at work and it was some, and I was explaining that I was using this thing cause she, um, suffered from fibromyalgia. And you know I was talking about my stuff and I was like, yeah, I found this, you know this thing, and I did it, and you know, and then all of a sudden I was like my head doesn't hurt, like holy crap, you know, like I don't have to, you know, do this, like okay, this is cool. And then, of course, the next day it kind of came back and you know whatever. And so there there became like spaces, you know little breaks in time where I would think, you know, I'd go back and, like, you know, run through and do a body scan, and I was like I don't think anything hurts, you know, it's like okay, what can I do? You know, like, oh, I can go enjoy a moment with a friend or, you know, do something really quick, you know, because I wasn't 100% sure that was going to work. Because I did. You know, there's always skepticism, right? Like, oh, this, I've done so many things before, so how could this work? Right, I've tried this drug, I've done this style of eating, or you know, whatever it may be. And you know, listening to a stupid app like this is ridiculous, you know, listening to a stupid app like this is ridiculous, you know. But it worked.
Speaker 1:And I think having those little breaks in time allowed me one to read the book and really get some absorption of knowledge at that time. Right, because now, all of a sudden, I can kind of put sentences together and think for longer periods of time without it being overwhelming or scary or whatever. And so then I was actually able to read the book and I don't read books, I mean, I have a ton of books and they all have little pieces of paper in the middle of them because once I figure out where we're going, I'm done reading the book. And this was actually a book that I read and I was like, yeah, go me. But as I was going through it and looking at it, I started to realize like how much of a part anxiety was playing. Fear and anxiety were playing. I also you know cause.
Speaker 1:Sarno talks about the repressed anger and I got the repressed anger. We all have repressed anger and it's, you know, usually because our childhood didn't work out the way it did. You know, a lot of people have trauma, you know kinds of things. And then for me it was also the fear, and the fear was with the like kind of went hand in hand with the anger. And so then I had the opportunity, because I had the space of like, respite from pain, where I can start making connections.
Speaker 2:That's a really wonderful answer. Love listening to you. I know Donna's going to smash this. Thank you. So next question I know you've already read this, so it's like oh, what's Christmas next? The question is do you feel that there was anything in your life that you had to change in order to make curable work?
Speaker 1:Everything. Because, you know, your brain is a playground that probably shouldn't be allowed to play in by yourself, right? And so all of my thinking and behaviors had to change for this to actually stick. And you know, one is that you know I'm a people pleaser. I grew up in, you know, a family of alcoholics, and they were functional alcoholics. So, you know, when the therapist first approached me you know I don't know how many years ago, 30 years ago and said, oh, you should read this book, I was like well, you know, my parents aren't getting drunk and I'm not having to pick them up at the police station or anything like that. You know, they were functional people, but my behaviors were created around their behavior. So, because they would get angry so quickly, I needed to be a people pleaser.
Speaker 1:And so, as I got older, that became my, you know, mo was that I would be a people pleaser, and so and I'd find that I was doing it in every aspect of my life I was trying to please my children, I was trying to please my partner. I was trying to please my children. I was trying to please my partner. I was trying to please, you know, my job and all these things, and it just um, it consumed my life. And so I had to learn how to not do things and not have like, because one of the things that people pleasers need is information. Right, because the more information I know about you then then the more I can please you. And so I'd find my like.
Speaker 1:So I started at work, where you know, people were talking and they, you know be talking about a student or a colleague or something that was going on. And then I would stand there for a moment and I think, does this concern me? And that was the number one question Does this concern me? And then I'd go nope, and then I'd turn around and walk away, and, you know, part of me is like, oh, I want to stay because I want to get the dirt or whatever it may be, but the other part is like, no, you know, this doesn't concern you, so you need to leave it alone.
Speaker 1:And that was really, really hard, because that was such a part of my personality that I had to change it. And my family had a hard time with that because, you know, as a person in a household who tries to anticipate people's needs, I had to start asking if they needed me to help, as opposed to predicting. And that became a thing, you know, because before I just come and take it over and then do it and then be done with it because it's over, you know kind of thing. And now it was like I realized that I needed to change my attitude and empower the people that I live with. And so, instead of, like you know, you may go, oh, wow, the garbage is full, and I go, hmm, so you know, before I'd go, oh, she wants me to take out the garbage, and then I'd run and go take out the garbage. And now I'm like, well, yes, the garbage is full, I walk away because I don't feel like taking out the garbage. I'm not taking out the garbage.
Speaker 1:Or if it comes up more than once, then I'd say, would you like me to take out the garbage? Oh, no, I was just, you know, I was like, okay, just checking, you know, but it's hard to do that because you also have to advocate for yourself, also have to advocate for yourself and you have to have confidence in who you are. And I think that a lot of us that are people pleasers are not terribly confident. Um, and we're not very um, we, we appear to be strong. You know, like if you meet me you think, oh yeah, she's got her stuff together, she's fantastic, and it's like, but at that time I was just so desperately wanting you to like me. And that's a very difficult, you know, because so you're unsure about your relationships, you're unsure about your health, you're in, you know all these things, and so there's no wonder why I was so dang anxious, like just totally terrified all that, like what if you don't like me? Holy crap, that would be horrible.
Speaker 2:That makes a lot of sense. Can you tell me any particular things that and I believe you have answered to a point, so forgive me that Is there anything that you couldn't do beforehand, before, when you had the frequent migraines, the frequent hamstring pain, the back pain, all of these things that got in the way? Is there anything now that you could do that you couldn't have done when you were having those frequent symptoms?
Speaker 1:Go out with friends to public places, because the anticipation of going out would freak me out. So then my head would start to hurt and then I'd say, oh, you know, sorry, I got a migraine, can't go. You know, meet you at the bar or meet you at the restaurant or whatever Concerts. You know, sorry, I got a migraine, can't go. You know, meet you at the bar or meet you at the restaurant or whatever. Um, concerts, you know, going to listen to live music was ex and I'm talking. You know I'm not talking, although this summer I went to lizzo and that was a lot like I was. Oh, I don't know if I want to do this again because you know, but I could tell you that five years ago that or four years ago that would have never happened, like I would have never.
Speaker 1:And I started off small. You know, I was like OK, I'm just going to go to the local place and go listen, and you know, and do things, and it had to be a thing and I would say like I'm really nervous, going to do this and I'm going to do this and we're going to see how long it lasts and you know, whatever. So it was like kind of my own baby exposure therapy kind of thing. And then I um bought tickets to bottle rock, which is a music festival here in the United States, in Napa Valley, and they put you in a like a fairground type facility. And they put you in a like a fairground type facility and there are so many people like insane amount, like people, and I went and I wanted to, you know, listen to Lizzo, and I could not move, like. But what was interesting cause I was, you know, I was having a moment and I was freaking out. It almost seems like like people attract to one another, and so everybody around us was kind of feeling the same kind of vibe and we created a little bubble of space and our own bubble of safety. And then it was funny because when people were like, oh, I'm going to cut through, we're like now, and then they have to go around and do whatever, and so they kind of it's like I didn't have to say I need help. It was almost like, intuitively, the people around me knew like you need help, let's keep this, you know, let's keep this space open, and I appreciate that. But if something went sideways and we all had to leave, like I was going to die. You know, like, you hear about those stories about getting trampled and you know what I about those stories about getting trampled, and you know what I was like there were too many people. You know, I probably will never do it again, but you know, I definitely would want to be more of an organized concert goer, as opposed to music festival where people all over each other. But yeah, I could have never, ever done that.
Speaker 1:And you know, even like I said, the simple thing of going out to dinner was such a stressful event and I always there was a thought of like, what am I going to be able to do?
Speaker 1:You know, am I going to be able to make it through dinner? Am I going to be able to eat this? Because it may make me nauseous, and you know, those kinds of there's always so many concerns and now I have bodily sensations. And then there's a conversation, as I'm, you know, driving there. You know, like, have you ever passed out before? Because I swear I'm going to pass out, and it's like you've never passed out, you know, and it's like, and then the doing you know, I also use, like EFT tapping sometimes, and so then I'm driving and I'm tapping on the karate chop pot and it's like, even though I feel like I'm going to pass out, I love and accept myself. You know, and I do all these things and it's, it's really it's.
Speaker 1:It's a very interesting way to have to navigate your anxiousness with knowing that you'll, like you have to become your own healer and I always intuitively knew that. But now I get it right, like I am the only source of my um, calming, soothing type thing. Yes, there are people in my life that I know that love me and that can soothe me, but really it's me telling me that I'm going to be, and not the you know the bullshit, you know y'all you're going to be okay. Like you know your parents are like, oh, you could, and not the. You know the. You know you're going to be okay. Like you know your parents are like, oh, you could do it. You know, just push through it kind of thing. But the like I love you and this is good, you're going to be okay, this is going to be okay. You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Just, and I don't think I even knew how to self-soothe, because I think that when you grow up in different circumstances, where you're asked to be an adult at a very early age. There's that's something you miss, right? You're not getting those soothing type cues from your family, right? They're not going to be like, oh, when you're sad you should hug your teddy bear, or you know. I know that sounds silly and simplistic, but it is right. Like that idea of giving somebody love and I didn't know what it was, and so the idea that now I can do this and I can hug myself and I tell myself I love myself, or whatever, is huge, because that's the stuff that I always wanted, right? That was the desperation growing up, was I just wanted somebody to actually tell me they love me and mean it right, and not just, oh, I'm your parent, so I'm going to say it.
Speaker 2:so well that that sounds, that sounds really familiar. Um, just briefly, because I know you've you've touched on them quite um, uh, in various different points. What are the names of a couple of the things? Or, or, if there's, if there's a sort of shorter list of of the methodologies that you tried before you came to curable and dr sano?
Speaker 1:oh, my goodness, um, every drug imaginable, um, you know, every migraine medication, every um, every I can't even anti-seizure medication is a common US thing that they give for migraines, because so essentially in the United States the belief is that the reason why you get a migraine is because there's tightness in your body and that by taking medication, specifically anti-seizure or almost like the junk antidepressants, the ones that didn't work for depression, but actually you know they're like, oh well, we find that it works for people with migraines kind of thing they throw at you. So you know there's a host of I like. I remember at one point I listed how many different medications I was on at the same time because nobody talked to one another. So I was, I was higher than a kite and you know, between that and anti anxiety medications and then over the counter stuff and then fun stuff that I tried to like. You know, if I know that I take three Benadryl and this and that and everything else, then I won't feel this. The only thing I really did not use was alcohol, um, because it, uh, me and alcohol and even it's funny actually me and like marijuana do not get along. Um, the couple of times I tried like the medical marijuana stuff. Um, it was very different than the marijuana I had when I was 17 years old, getting it from, you know, my friend and whatever. And I actually found out that literally the stuff that I smoked when I was probably 17 year old was like 6%, thc, 6 to 12%, and now the stuff's like 97%. It's insane, yeah, it's crazy. So I, you know, obviously made mistakes with that and I got super high and then that was bad, because now you're scared and high and I'm not a good scared and high person, you know kind of thing. So, yeah, so I mean, like I said, you know tons of migraine medications, anti seizure medications, nausea medications.
Speaker 1:I did every diet you can imagine. I did gluten free, I did, you know, I think I don't really I never could give up bacon. So I never did any vegetarian, vegan, you know kind of stuff. But I did. You know certain percentages like of macros and this and that and and all that other stuff. So I did carnivore diet because I thought that was good and that wasn't very good, you know. And and it's funny because you're going through the process and, of course, because there's a belief right, which everything always harnesses on a belief. There's a belief that this is going to be the thing. I would have a brief moment right when I was like, oh, this is working. And then, as life continued on, then that was the end of that. And then you're spending a bunch of money on drugs and you know, or going to the doctor and getting this procedure, you know, probably the one of the worst things I ever did and I do not recommend for anybody. That's a serious.
Speaker 1:Do not recommend Botox that was is the most insane Well, stupid, first of all. And I don't understand like I know there's people in the world who get it done for their face, for their looks, and I commend you because the um wear off pain is insane. It feels like literally somebody is lighting your skin on fire when it wears off. And that may be for me, because I had a hypersensitive system and maybe if you're used to it, it doesn't. You don't have the same reaction. But you know you get 30, some odd shots and they run all along your hairline and the back of your neck. And it was interesting. I had this one area because I do in the forehead that was like flat and you know I was like, oh, I didn't. I guess I got a little bit of it. It's definitely not a like oh, facelift kind of action for you, especially if you're a migraine sufferer, because the areas are not the same. But I did have this like probably, you know, two inch circle in the middle of my forehead was very flat during that time. But when I came off it, when it was fading off because of course it's supposed to last like 13 weeks or some thing mine only lasted like six and the the excruciating pain of coming off. It was like just a horrible way to have to navigate pain. Just, you know, just because touching my skin was painful from where it was, where it was injected, it was just, it was ridiculous. So that was something. I was like, nope, thanks, I won't do that again. And they're like you're supposed to come back. I'm like, no, I'm not something. I was like, nope, thanks, I won't do that again. And they're like you're supposed to come back. I'm like, no, I'm not, um, but you know. And then, of course, acupuncture, art, which is active release therapy for muscles, um, massage, rolfing, um, you know, if they told me to stand on my head and, you know, snort chiclets, I probably would have done.
Speaker 1:I just, I was so desperate that I was trying everything, you know, and it was just, it was ridiculous. And God bless my family because they had to live through all this stuff. They're like are we eating meat? Oh, we're not eating meat. Oh, we're doing red meat? Okay, we're not doing. And they just had. I mean, I fed them properly, you know, and I just was me. But you know, like when you go out somewhere, it's like oh, what can Dana eat? Oh, we're not doing gluten. Now you know, oh, we're not doing dairy, we're not doing this. You know just all this crazy stuff. So it was.
Speaker 1:It made life very complicated on top of whatever, and I imagine it was complicated being around me as well, because as I'm suffering through all these different, you know drug come offs and you know being high and all this other stuff. Like I apologize to my children, I was like I was not a very good parent for about four years there and you know they understand, but they're just, you know it's funny because the, especially the two youngest ones, they'll talk and they're like oh, remember when we did this? And they're like and you said this, nope, don't recall, you know. So they have at least the memories of you know those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:But it really it was. It was very messy, but again, when you're somebody who's so desperate and this has gone on, I mean I started my quest probably about 16 of really trying to figure out, like solve, what was wrong with me. And you know, at one point when I was doing the math I was thinking I was probably spending about $1,500 a month extra on things and I have very good medical coverage that was outside of my medical coverage to pay for all the different things that I was doing to try to manage my chronic pain.
Speaker 2:And from Correct me if I'm wrong I know the curable yearly cost is somewhere in pounds. I feel it's like something about six, 60 pounds. What is the lifetime cost approximately?
Speaker 1:I don't remember. I think there was a deal or something that I got and it was probably 200 us. So, yeah, so it was very um, manageable, you know, and I actually, and it was fun because, um, like I said, I fell in love with barry mcdonough when I was listening to the to the curable app, and so I ended up buying his app as well, which is the dare app, which is a very good um in the moment kind of thing. Like you know, if you're having a panic attack right now, you kind of hit the thing I'm having a panic attack right now and then it puts you some breathing exercises and and things that are, um, you know, help calm your nervous system down so that you can get to a place where then you can start looking at, you know, like, oh, what do I need to do differently? Or what do I need right now?
Speaker 2:You literally just answered my next question. I was saying when your symptoms do make those noises like they're about to return, do you jump straight onto DARE or do you go to curable? What's your method when you feel like it's coming back?
Speaker 1:do have the twinge in my neck or my head will hurt a little bit, like my body still hasn't learned how to interpret muscle soreness from working out to muscle soreness from pain, and so you know, I have to remind myself you did a workout yesterday. That is why things are tight, you're okay, but sometimes I'll feel that. And that's the other thing too is that when you're going through chronic pain, a lot of times you don't listen to your intuition. Your intuition is gone, it's shut down, it's like locked away and everything else. And now I'm listening to my intuition and if I get that little butterfly feeling in my stomach, then I know that it's anxiety, and so then I will go to the DARE app and I'll get whatever meditation it is to start to, you know, breathe through it. You know, because again they have, you know, square breathing. They have all different types of stuff and that usually will calm me down. If it's something that I feel like I can't get past and there is no anxiety around it, where it's just like it just happens to be a crappy day and I'm going to, my head's going to hurt, then I will go to the curable app because they have somatic tracking and sometimes that will help bring me out of it a little bit and, if anything, it just gives me a little bit of relief. And then typically, as I go through my day, I get distracted and then it miraculously kind of disappears. But some days it doesn't happen. Right, I won't get distracted enough and I'll feel like crap and I'll just like have to say you know, today I'm going to feel like crap, tomorrow's going to be fantastic. So you know, this is clearly I needed to rest and I have to listen to my body. And then I make sure if I have appointments that day, I go ahead and cancel it. And now I don't worry about canceling an appointment. You know, I don't beat myself over it, up over it, I just take care of myself.
Speaker 1:And I think before I was in such a cycle of people pleasing that you know I would try to do so many things in a day and it would get crazy where I was, like I did 25 things today, you know, and it's like okay, so is there a metal? You know, and I had a doc. I had one doctor who's actually a mind body doctor who asked me that she was like are you expecting? Like a plaque, what would you like as a result of this? You know, like I shit, there's no plaque, okay, you know. And she's like, yeah, your kids aren't going to be like, oh, she's a great mom, she did 25 things in a day, every day. For you know, whatever they're like, they're going to be like we didn't get to go places because she felt like shit, you know that kind of thing. And it's like, oh, okay, but even that wasn't at that time. I couldn't hear that message as well you know cause she was before the other stuff.
Speaker 2:That makes sense. So my again, I'm going to just want to. I want to summarize from my understanding when your symptoms decide like that they're going to come up, but you've noticed them before you have a full say, flare up, you would do methods that involve, uh, breathing focus, methods that involve body sensation focus and, and a sort of more external one is, you would find different things that would distract you away from it, to to kind of put your brain in a different place. But those are the kind of three immediate, how do I, how do I stop this from coming bigger than it is?
Speaker 1:yes, and the distraction has to be normal, like I can't you know, because before it was I'm going to watch tv obsessively because I'm going to act like I'm not feeling my head pain. Um, the distraction is just going about my day and I teach, so I have students asking me questions, I have things that are going on, and so it's a nice distraction, unless something crazy happens, because teenagers you never know from day to day. But yeah, I think it's an important, it's a it's important distinction to understand that the distraction is really about you living your life and not necessarily about I am doing. You know, I'm going to play games on my phone for three hours so that I don't feel the throbbing in my head, because that is not a very good distraction.
Speaker 2:Don't feel cool about it at all.
Speaker 1:And it's not that I don't do those things. I still go and I play it, you know whatever. But if there's an intensity about it and for those of us who have chronic pain, you know, because you feel there's there's something different about, like I'm going to play this game and now if I find myself playing the game or I find myself biting my nails or doing something, I have to stop for a moment and go what is this about? And then that's when I turn to journaling right, and say I was having a great day and then this person said this and I felt badly about that and I really hate them for saying that, because they really called me out and that's BS, and I'm angry and you know whatever, and I wish they'd just leave me alone and mind their own business. And then it goes back to well, I really do feel that way and I probably should have said something. And next time, you know, when they say something like that, then I should probably just accept responsibility, like and that's how my you know, like I goes into, like I call out the thing, I, you know, get furious about it, you know, whatever it may be in the middle, and then the end is. I kind of bring it back to what is the lesson that I learned from this and what do I need to do to care for myself so that I don't find myself in this situation again?
Speaker 1:And you know, it may be the same situation every day, you know, like, because there is no like, oh, I'm never going to have a difficult interaction with another human being. You know, you're going to have difficult interactions and again, like I said, I'm a teacher, so I'm dealing with parents, I'm dealing with, you know, students who may not be happy, and you know, so you have to, you have to learn how to navigate that. But there's also that self care piece-care, piece. It's like well, what do you need to do when that happens? You know, and a lot of times it's set a boundary, you know, and that's. I think we don't set boundaries for ourselves, and I think that's a human condition. Is that, um, you know, we work longer than we need to. We do things that we don't want to do because we're afraid to set a boundary, because we don't want to disappoint people absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, john. That was a really, really beautifully thorough answer. I I just know that anyone watching this is just gonna like I have just made so many connections to what you're saying that it's that is so universal that everything that everyone will take something different from this and hopefully find the connection to to make change in their life. I have one last question for you, which is more of a broad one, um and I think you've touched on it a little bit anyway, but for the for the sake of the interview is why do you feel that the migraines in particular, but but also the hamstring pain, why do you think it came to you as a person, as opposed to, say, your brother, your sister, your cousin? Why?
Speaker 1:you. Well, both my brothers are very sick and unhealthy individuals. So I think again, generationally it's not as easy to say um, we were taught that expressing feelings was not appropriate and that being emotionally honest was not valued. And I think so. You know, if either you express it and then you're embarrassed right, because people will embarrass you Like, why are you behaving that way? Pick yourself up, you know you don't need to cry or scream or you know pound things or do whatever. So that's one choice. And then the opposite, obviously, is stuffing. Right Is having that proper right. You know, children are seen but not heard, right, those types of behaviors that we have generationally been raised with.
Speaker 1:And when you were recapping my previous answer, one of the things that I was thinking about is that you know a lot of the stuff that I have suffered with or have dealt with or whatever. Yes, they came, they leaked out, right, it's? I think I, you know my vessel was over full, so of course, chronic pain was going to be the response. And again, you know, for people who don't understand, you know chronic pain could be IBS, it could be fibromyalgia, you know there's a whole host of different things that fall under that umbrella, but the reality is is that everybody has this kind of stuff and even like for me as a teacher, like I'm trying to teach my students to express their emotions, and I believe that I've had more boys cry over the last couple of years and haven't shamed them for crying, and I'm hoping that somewhere that translates into them being a better parent down the line or healthier with their partners and their relationships, where they're able to say like this makes me sad, or I'm frustrated or you know whatever, instead of being shamed. But I believe that, on the whole, the reason why you know most people suffer, you know regardless, just suffer in general because of the fact that we're just not emotionally honest.
Speaker 1:For me it just, you know it was like I hit the trifecta of, you know, parents being, you know um, not present and you know, uh, dependent on substances, me trying to please, and then also being lonely, you know, really not having that connection. I didn't have the internet or, you know whatever, tv was my you know uh third parent, um, growing up. So, and then of course, I had all those false images that I was receiving, you know, the, of the brady bunch and all these wonderful families, and it wasn't jiving with what I was seeing. You know, like, wait, you know, when you're upset, your parents come in, they put their arm around you and they tell you how much they love you and they expect you know, they reason things out with you and as for me, I'm going into my room and I'm crying and nobody's coming to get me. You know, nobody cares. They just want me to go away because they don't need me being emotional in front of them and I, I think it was only a matter of time that I was going to just pop.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think that when I was little, there was these little leaks, right, the headaches, and you know the stomach stuff, and you know all the little things that popped up. And then, eventually, when I got to having this very emotional um, you know, breakup and you know just all the things. You know, because there's other things going on at work and there's just too many things going on. I just couldn't keep lit on it and so my body was just trying to find ways to get my attention. And you know there is a lesson in it.
Speaker 1:I don't know like some people are, like I'm grateful for my pain, I'm not there yet, and I don't know if I ever will be there.
Speaker 1:I'm grateful for the lesson, for sure, because now it gives me the opportunity to talk to people and, to, you know, counsel them to think about their pain differently, and I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I believe it has made me a better parent, where I question my children more than I tell them things, because that's how I was raised, was I was, you know, talked to and there wasn't a whole lot of discussion. It was more about this is the way you need to do things. And now I'm listening to how they do things and asking more questions so that I get insight and I think as a teacher, I do that as well is that I'm asking more questions and I'm getting more insight from my students because they have a lot to offer and I, you know, it probably like all the way goes back to where you know I think there was this belief that I didn't have value and that my knowledge wasn't legitimate at an early age. And you know the intuition piece, the feelings, all those things like we can't kind of shut children down. Not kind of we can't shut children down. They need to be able to express their feelings and I think that if I was allowed to express my feelings, I probably would have had a different outcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Donna.
