Pain-Free Athlete's Podcast
Are you tired of feeling pain? Are you recovering from a surgery? Do you want to learn how to stay active and pain-free? I'll share tips and strategies that can help you stay safe and pain-free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness, rehabilitation and pain management.
Pain-Free Athlete's Podcast
Pain Reprocessing Therapy with Gemma McFall
Promising a pain-free life might sound too good to be true, but our guest Gemma McFall, a specialist in pain reprocessing therapy (PRT), shares actionable insights and real-life success stories that reveal how it's possible. Join us as Gemma unpacks her four-step PRT approach, which includes pain education, personal history examination, personality profiling, and practical pain management tips. Listen to how understanding the neural pathways of pain led one client to experience dramatic migraine relief after just one session, showcasing the transformative power of this method. Tune in for an episode packed with wisdom, practical advice, and a hopeful perspective on living a pain-free, fulfilling life.
https://gemmamcfall.com/
2024 DJFE Triathlon Race Series
Podcast Disclaimer:
The Pain-Free Podcast is presented solely for general information, education, and entertainment purposes. Any information presented in this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional diagnosis. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. As always, users should not disregard or delay obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition that they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.
@djsfitnessevolution
Welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones. I am a certified personal trainer and I'm here to help you achieve your fitness goals without pain. In each episode, I'll share tips and strategies that will help you stay safe and pain-free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness and pain management. So if you're ready to learn how to stay active and pain-free, then subscribe to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast today. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones, and today I am joined by Gemma McFall. How are you, gemma?
Speaker 2:I'm very good, thank you. Thanks for having me, gemma.
Speaker 1:McFall. How are you, gemma? I'm very good, thank you. Thanks for having me. I love having like new friends, all my Serpa friends, coming in for a full swing, like we have to have a reunion in person or something because I keep interviewing everybody from Serpa.
Speaker 2:It's a small circle, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's wonderful. I think actually I need to go to the UK because that would be fun. You don't need to come here well, I'm actually in Dubai, oh okay, well, yeah, so then maybe UK may be a nice minimal like middle ground that we can all that's great.
Speaker 2:So you uh do pain, pain reprocessing therapy and tell us a little bit about that yeah, so I I was trained up, uh last year with alan gordon and the, the pain reprocessing therapy, and it just is another tool for the toolkit. Um, the first thing I I got trained on was with georgie, uh, with a surfer in the uk and, yeah, I just wanted an extra, an extra string for my bow, let say. But a PRP's been great because it's very practical and it's very science-based and I think it just lands really well with the people that I'm working with. So, yeah, I've enjoyed it so far.
Speaker 1:That's good. I've been curious about that because you know Georgie has her. I want to say a little bit more scientific has to be there's an understanding of what I'm dealing with. But there's also this kind of massage of trying to open people's minds that the pain doesn't necessarily have to be because of an old injury or, you know, whatever it may be. And so I found that her technique kind of balances the both, where it kind of allows people to kind of have their beliefs but then also open themselves to something different. So explain, like you know, one I'm kind of jealous because I would have loved to do the stuff, the training with Alan Gordon, cause I think he's kind of awesome. Um, so like say, I come in, um, and you know I've had I'll. I'll just go old storyline here. Um, I have, you know, migraines for 40 years and I've done everything, I've had all the scans, I've done all the medications and you know where would you start with somebody with that.
Speaker 2:That's great, is that that's? That's a true story, right.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tell you what I do rather than specifically only what PRT is. So I take people through a four step process, four P's Pain, understanding what pain is. Now this is a really, really big of alan gordon's prt. He calls it psychoeducation and I truly believe this is the most important step. So, like if you came to me with migraines, actually, to be honest, before you would come to me with migraine, I would send you a little quiz to do, with little videos explaining about neural pathway pain or tms or whatever you want to call it. So by the time we have that discovery call, you've already the cogs are already turning and you're already yeah, you know you've answered questions about your personality and your past and your symptoms and everything. So at that point in the discovery call, that's already when we start kind of shaking up everything you think you know um. So that's the first p, and then I would take people through their past and I do a timeline um from from birth all the way up to where we are today. And then the third part, which is a really big one for me, is personality um. I'm also a balance trends coach, so I take people through a personality profiling thing and kind of figure out who they are and and why they think and feel and behave the way that they do. And that, I really feel, is where a turning point happens and they go focusing only on the symptoms in your case migraine and to focus on what they actually um love to do. And the last p is practical tips and things. But it's interesting what you say about the migraine.
Speaker 2:I I had a potential client come to me very recently um for a discovery call. She'd had migraines for 15 years, five days a week for 15 years, and then I never heard. I never heard from her again after the discovery call. And then I just met her randomly at an event and she said I'm so sorry I never came back to you, but after that call I didn't have another migraine and I didn't want to jinx it and like get another migraine by calling you. I just didn't want to like like change anything but that. I think that is why the first P, this co-education, is so important. Like anyone can can start on this path if they've got the right information, you know can, can start on this path if they've got the right information.
Speaker 1:You know that's crazy, but I totally get that, because when I was after um, so I went the john sarno route, right, so I had been suggested the book, uh, was insulted that I was suggested the book and then went I don't know another couple of years and then finally it was covid and I had nothing to do. So I was like I should probably read this book. Um, because, um, I had just completed, I think I did 15 months with literally every day with a migraine, and so, uh, the desperation was kind of there because the medications were causing some physical harm, uh, like liver values were off and stuff like that, because migraine medications are just shit. So I read the book and I started, you know, thinking about it and it's like, okay, well, what are my personality traits? And of course I think I checked off like every personality trait that is for somebody with TMS. It's like people pleasing yes, you know, perfectionism yes.
Speaker 1:It's like just ticking off all the things. But I didn't have. I was like trying to figure it out and trying to decide, like if I was really bought into the idea, and finally I did. But I remember I went like I woke up one morning and I had terrible pain and I was also using the curable app and I did a um like almost like a pain, a pain processing kind of meditation, and I went through it and then I kind of fell back to sleep and I woke up, you know, probably about a half an hour later, cause I had to go to work and my head didn't hurt and I was terrified to tell anybody because I didn't want to jinx it. That was like the same thing. I totally feel that person's, you know, vibe, it's like I don't want to mess this up, you know, and I didn't say anything to anybody.
Speaker 1:And then I kept having you know, and so previously what would happen is I'd wake up about somewhere between three, 30 and four, 20 every time, every day, and I would. My brain would be screaming and then I would take a pill and then I'd fall asleep, wake up at six, 30, and then I'd get ready and go to work and so my body was very accustomed to getting up at the same time and having the same pain response, and it was always, you know, I'd lay there and then I would take a moment to check in and then I'd feel the burn or whatever it was, and then freak out, and then go through the process of freak out and then give in and say, okay, I probably should take the meds because I have to go to work today for whatever reason, and it took a long time to get out of, like I wish I had a conversation with you and it was over. It took, you know, it took probably about a good three months to kind of break that cycle of waking up at that time in the morning. It took, you know, I didn't want to say anything to anybody because I was afraid that it wasn't going to work and I didn't want it to be, you know. So there's like this weird.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'm saying is that there's this weird, I don't know accumulation of feelings, and some of them are, you know, the people pleasing and the, you know, wanting to be perfect at it and trying to get that round. And then there's the shame and the embarrassment. And you know, because I've talked about wanting to get rid of this for so long, and if I tell you this one more thing that is supposed to be the perfect example and it doesn't work, then I failed again and so I had to kind of go through that process and then eventually I just decided to stop talking about it and then I made a podcast, but you know, but you know there's something in this the stop this is the stop talking about it thing.
Speaker 2:Like I, literally before this call um, was on Facebook and somebody said what's the best Facebook group for all this whole? You know this tms thing and and I honestly never, ever direct people to facebook groups because there's too much conflicting information, and go searching through trying to find answers. But the root of all of it is the like people say how long will it take me to get rid of my symptoms? Well, how long will it take you to get rid of the fear of symptoms? That's the thing right, and the you're not going to get rid of the fear of the symptoms if you're researching it day and night, just before you fall to sleep on facebook and as soon as you wake up, like the fear is going to be um heightened. So I'm totally in your camp. I read one john sarno book. I didn't know about any Facebook groups. I, to be fair, I knew about the TMS wiki that was around at the time.
Speaker 2:I managed to work through the back. I had back pain for 10 years and I managed to work through it, just like you. I didn't tell anyone because I didn't, I just it was my journey, you know. And then people would say, how's your back? And I'd be like, oh, it's fine. Even though it wasn't fine, that's fine, because I didn't want them to keep on reminding me about it. I just it's time to move on now, you know? Yeah, well, I think, as pain sufferers.
Speaker 1:we do, I don't know wallow and not in a, you know, especially as TMS. I think there's a difference between, you know, people who have the TMS personality versus other people who suffer pain, and there is. It's almost like, I think, internally we wallow in it, but not out, not outwardly, right, like oh, I can't have you know that anything is wrong. Right, I need to be the perfect mom, I need to be able to pick up my kids and do all the things and take them everywhere you and, of course, collapse or die when I get home. But you know, there's that standard of you know, pushing through that a lot of us have.
Speaker 1:And you know I talked about this a long time ago, you know, because in fitness we have this saying that no pain, no gain, kind of thing. But I think it's a very similar kind of personality trait for TMSers where it's like, you know, yes, pain, you know, still going forward, you know, kind of thing. Like I got to, you know, drive on. Right, in the army we used to say this thing. It would be called Fido, fuck it and drive on, and that was kind of my. My motto for this is like, yeah, it sucks that I feel this way, but I can't let it stop me from doing things, even though it did right, like there's certain things that I had to let go. But you know, to this day I still have I don't know 700 hours of sick time.
Speaker 2:Wow See, this is really interesting because for me it was a little different.
Speaker 2:Like I would plow on at work and I was working as a HR director, so I had like in a hotel, so it was long hours and I would start really early and finish pretty late. But people knew I had back pain because I had loads of pillows shoved behind my office chair, you know, and I think I looked probably like I had back pain, but I plowed on through all the time Like I would put heels on to walk around the hotel because that was the standard of the hotel, and I'd get back to my office and throw them away, you know. But then I would get home and I would crash and burn and so, like at home I was lying on the back on my back on the floor trying to get my spine to decompress, and I had stupid tennis balls that were joined together with sellotape that would try and like roll down my spine, which it made so much sense at the time. And now I'm like what on earth was I doing? Crawling around on the floor with tennis balls? Like?
Speaker 2:they sell those now then I'd wake up, yeah, but then I can wake up the next day and back into work. And and I was, I was good to go in pain, but I would. I didn't let any cracks show, as much, you know. Did you take sick days? I didn't take days. I would go out of work time for physio and for you know, like I was constantly backwards and forwards for little treatments here and there, but again, with the TMS personality type, I did it at lunchtime.
Speaker 2:So I wouldn't sacrifice my lunch to go and get more tablets or whatever. But I don't think I. I remember having spinal injections, but on a weekend.
Speaker 1:I don't think I would have taken them oh my goodness, yeah, now do you? Now do you take days for yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, now I'm a freelancer and I will tell you what my schedule is for this week. Thursday, like midweek, I've got the whole day booked off and I would never have done that before never.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic yeah, see, we can learn, we can, yeah, we can retrain our brains that it's okay for us to care for ourselves yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a good question.
Speaker 2:It's funny how you made me look forward to Thursday.
Speaker 1:Well, that's I mean and that's you know. I went. I think it was in January. I went and got a massage and it was a. Really it was a tester massage, because I haven't gone for a massage since this change of thinking, because now it's been about three years. And so I had to go and you know, they give you the little body chart that says, you know, put an X where your pain is, and things like that. And I didn't put anything on it and I purposely left it blank and did whatever and I didn't say anything. I said, oh, I'm fine, just you know. And in the past, when I anything, I said, oh, I'm fine, just you know.
Speaker 1:And in the past, when I've gone for an injury or whatever you know, the person will grind on that area and then what would usually happen is that I would, you know, not say anything and let them do whatever they're doing and hold on to all the feelings and then go home and have a headache after getting a massage, which is kind of weird, you know, because I didn't want to whatever. And so then I decided massages were bad, and so this was the first time that I went for a massage and I didn't have any kind of reaction after. It was not a very comfortable massage because the entire time I kept saying you're safe, you are so safe, you are so safe, you're okay, you know, but I knew that I needed to do it because it had to be like I needed to break this cycle of this belief that you know I was going to be injured as a result of you rubbing your hands on me you know kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Do you know? You're making me think of the very first person I helped through TMS before I'd kind of fully make the plunge into doing it as a job. Um, we had a friend in Dubai who had back pain, just like me, for years. We were having a barbecue and he went to stand up and he he looked like an old man. He had to use both hands and kind of turn sideways to stand up from this chair hobbled over to the barbecue and I was like wow, your back is is bad, isn't it? And he knew that like I just kind of got over back pain. So I stood with him at the barbecue chatting about neural pathway pain, and you know, like I wasn't lecturing him in any way, I was just sharing kind of what I'd done, you know. And he said you know what tips would you give me? And I said he had physio every single week. So I said you know what the first tip is stop the physio and instead just go for a really nice massage and that's it. But go because you want to really relax and enjoy the experience, not because you believe there's something wrong with your back pain. So he went off and switched physio for relaxing massages and he read one book.
Speaker 2:I think it might have been the sun. Yeah, it was the sun. I won. It was before the recent ones have come out. He read the Sarno one and then his wife called me and because we were, we were like friends. She called me and she's like I am so happy, for the first time ever we're on holiday and he's not talking about his back pain, but he's got skin rash. I was like, yeah, and they were. They were laughing about the skin rash because, like, obviously he'd read the book, he knew about the symptoms moving around. So, yeah, it's really, uh, it's really. You really don't need to do too much other than move past the fear in many cases. I think sometimes we overthink this whole process oh for sure.
Speaker 1:I mean, and like you know, going back to the horrible facebook pages, and that they're not horrible, I I believe they serve a purpose, um, but there's so many facebook groups and one of the things that I've learned about social media is that people stew in their stuff and it doesn't matter whether it's politics or whether it's injuries, or, you know, it's gardening. I mean, you know there's things right that everybody know it's gardening. I mean, you know there's things right that everybody becomes hyper focused on. And you know, I remember I can't remember what led to it there's some woman who said something, um, so I was on, you know, this facebook group for pain, and it was, you know, two o'clock in the morning and and you know, and all these people are debating about what are the best things that you can do, and all these people are debating about what are the best things that you can do to get on disability, like what you have to say to your doctor and the drugs that you have to take so that you can qualify for disability, so that you don't have to go to work. And I thought to myself that can't be me, that can't be my outcome, and I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1:And then there was one woman who said something like oh, I, you know, I read, you know, john Sarno's book and I never, you know, I never have to worry about it again, or something like that. And you know, I think I messaged her. I was like what book was that? And you know, she think I messaged her. I was like what book was that? And you know she said, oh, the mind body prescription. And I think I've told this before. But I said something like I go on Amazon and it was like $13.99 for the book or whatever. I was like I don't know if I can afford that. Now, take it, at this point, I'm going to acupuncture, I'm going to massage or not massage, but I'm going to Cairo. I'm, you know, buying anything or everything that you can, you know, use to block any kind of pain, but I didn't want to pay $13.99 for the book, right? So eventually I was like I could do this.
Speaker 1:So then I bought the book, and then that started everything. And then that was one of the things that I think it was Nicole Sacks is like get off all the stuff you know, and so. So then I unsubscribe from all those facebook groups because of the fact that I was just getting this constant bombardment of other people's trauma and other people's fears and the perpetuating, you know, thinking around, all those fear, and it just really like I didn't realize, like, how much tension I was holding in my body as I was reading other people's experiences and I became frightened and that was, you know. The other part of it is that, you know, anxiety is a very real, um, I don't know, like cohabitator of pain and, um, even of healing, right, because there is the, those, the tense and funky feelings of like, holy crap, is this coming back?
Speaker 1:Is it? You know, is this the right thing? Are you the right doctor? Are you the right therapist? Are you? You know, all the things you know and it's really does occupy a tremendous amount of brain power, you know throughout your day. So I guess one of the questions is like, aside from you know what wonderful advice of like go get a massage, but like, you know throughout your day. So I guess one of the questions is like, aside from you know what wonderful advice of like go get a massage, but like you know, when you run into somebody who, um, you know, as most chronic pain people are, you know where they're obsessing. You know how do you get them to break that obsession um you great question.
Speaker 2:So that that's where the personality part really comes to its um, comes into its own. So I'll have someone go through a personality profiling assessment and then we can see what their natural strengths are. So let's say somebody has me. For example, I have learner, which means I love learning. Things like love, love, love, love. It makes me feel alive, just go into flow. It's amazing.
Speaker 2:But if you think I have back pain for 10 years, so I was using my learner to get better, so I was thinking I was getting better. So I'm like using learner to research, research, learn, learn, learn. All about every single. You know technique and mattress and pillow. And I even had these stupid wobbly shoes. You know that you. You know the MBT shoes where you oh gosh With the spring. It's kind of like a wobbly shoe that's supposed to be good for your core. They are so ugly. It's kind of like a wobbly shoe that's supposed to be good for your core. They are so ugly it's unbelievable. But I got these shoes on the back of using my learner to do it, so you could say that that's like obsessive focus on fixing, but just understanding that learner is one of my natural strengths, I was able to redirect it away from the whole pain thing and I started listening to ted talks every day one. I did one ted talk every single day and I noticed during the ted talk I had zero pain. So that was then giving me more and more evidence like ah okay, when I use my natural strengths I feel stronger. So like that's an example of learner.
Speaker 2:But some people's natural strengths are people related. So, for example, there's a good one that well, they're all good. I shouldn't be biased. There's one called WOO, which stands for winning others over, and this means people with woo. They get so much energy from meeting a stranger and then converting that stranger into a friend. That's where the energy comes. Like social butterfly. Someone's a social butterfly.
Speaker 2:If you imagine you have chronic pain. You don't have to imagine you actually had chronic pain. Like, imagine if you had woo. Um, and you love getting energy from meeting strangers, but you're stuck in your house all day with a migraine, you're not using your natural personality at all and when you don't use your strengths you don't feel strong. So, like if you were like my client, the first thing I would say is right, let's get you meeting strangers or whatever that in whatever capacity, even if it's converting the till, the person, the cashier counter into a friend, you would get an edge burst from that. So I mean, that's just two examples of strengths, but I would see which ones are driving people to be obsessive about something and then which ones can help them to find joy, because it's about moving towards joy rather than running away from fear that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I'm like a combination of both of those, because I did you know the learner piece I was so in, I, you know, I mean to the point of all the different things of you know weighing food and knowing about macros and and all that kind of craziness. And then the other piece are, you know, my children will tell you they're terribly embarrassed because I make friends with all the strangers. I I've never stood on a line by myself Like I have. I have friends, everybody's with me, you know, because I can't help it. Yeah, so I mean, that is a beautiful redirection and it allows you to kind of feel empowered as well.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, you know, here I'm doing something very simple, right, which is in my, my comfort zone. Right, if I like people, then talking to people is within my comfort zone. People, then talking to people is within my comfort zone. And, um, yeah, and then again there is that piece of like, as I'm focusing on what I enjoy, there is no ability, right, you're, because your brain is every everybody's redirected forward, right, so there's no chance of going. Oh, my finger hurts, or you know. Oh, the boy that ankle, that old sucker injury, is bothering me, or you know, whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and sometimes though, because you're to the sport side, I'll just kind of mention this, but some. I'll give you a real example. I'm working with a young, a young guy who has competition as a strength. So he needs to be competing with people to be able to have energy, but of course all the symptoms has meant he hasn't been competing with people to be able to have energy, but of course all the symptoms has meant he hasn't been competing with anyone because he's been out of action for a few years. So, again, he's not being himself.
Speaker 2:So I said you know what would be your ultimate, ultimate goal after we finish all these, uh, after we finish these sessions? And, of course, the knee jerk reaction to get rid of the pain. I'm like no, no, I don't, that's not a goal, that is not a goal. Right, what do you want to? That's a given. We'll assume that happens. What's the actual goal? Um, he said, oh, I'd love to do paddle tennis again. So I was like right, third second session. By the second session he was already doing paddle tennis. And it's because we linked it. His strength is competition. I said, right, let's do this, do the paddle tennis. And it's because we linked it. His strength is competition. I say, right, let's do this, do the paddle tennis. We don't need to be scared of it. You know he's already gone through the whole education piece and just being there competing with other people on the paddle tennis, and now does it every week.
Speaker 1:That's like that's after two sessions.
Speaker 2:But it's give, it's because but let's say, he didn't have competition and he had some people, things Like communication. I say go for a walk with a best friend and talk, because it's the talking that would give him energy for competing. Do you see what I mean? So, like, everyone is so uniquely different, but when we can align sport, exercise, hobbies and everything to the strengths, it just makes everything easy.
Speaker 1:Well, it's more specific. You know, and of course we know about introverts and extroverts, right? It's like introverts get their you know their energy from their recharge, right, reading books or self-care or whatever, and extroverts get their energy from people self-care or whatever and extroverts get their energy from people. But you're bringing it down even more specific toward whatever I have a tendency toward, and I think that is probably. I mean, you know, everything's good, right? You know, getting information, especially getting to know ourselves, is, you know, always vital, right, and it's's, it's just a I. I think it just empowers us to to be ourselves. And it's funny because there are times that you know it's not okay to be ourselves. And you know, I I think over the last few years we've noticed that, just because, you know, here in the united states things have gotten a little feisty in terms of people's beliefs and, you know, this idea that we can still communicate even though we don't have the same beliefs has kind of gone out the window. And what I'm noticing because my full-time gig is I'm a high school teacher and what I'm seeing in the youth is that they're unwilling to be themselves and they're unwilling to feel the feelings and all the things that go along with being themselves. And so I'm starting to notice behaviors that are very TMS-y and you know, my role, or my self-assigned role, in this is questioning, right, you know, just getting a little bit deeper, like you know. Well, you know, is that something that you really want, or how does that make you feel? Or you know, whatever it may be? And then they start to reflect a little bit more and they kind of look at it and have some. Hopefully, some inner reflection is what I'm shooting for, but it's, it's weird because, you know, I was raised very and not in a strict manner, but I was raised in a way where we just didn't feel things. You know, I'm older, a little bit older, so I was raised by baby boomers who were just like, you know, drive on, let's go, and that's fine, but there were no time for feelings. Um, but there were no time for feelings. So now I'm finding myself in this, in this place now, where I want to feel all the feelings, you know, because I know that's the healthiest piece for my body is to feel. You know, I don't know the shame when you know, I know that I, you know, have to share something that I don't really want to share that I'm embarrassed about. But I know that if I get it out there, then I can process the feelings as opposed to holding onto it and, you know, doing whatever. So if it's like, oh, I'm not as good of a athlete as I'd like to be, or you know, whatever, you know cause sometimes being an athlete, there's a lot of weird things that happen to our brains, you know, because if you're not high on the competition like, but you like competing, then there's, you know, you get shamed for that. It's like, oh, you're not as serious, you know, and I remember, as I'm talking about this, I remember specifically, like you know.
Speaker 1:So I was in the Army and I was at Officer Basic Corps and everybody was so driven, you know, they just all like, everybody had to get A's, they had to get the top and the, you know, the physical fitness test.
Speaker 1:I have to max out, I have to do all this stuff. And I wasn't like that and I had a really hard time trying to fit in or be a part of it because I wasn't feeling what you're feeling and then I was thinking something's wrong with me, like, is it, you know? Am I broken, that I don't want to be like, you know, the top, and then of course, everybody judges you because you're not on top right. We want to hear about who was number one in the class, you know, kind of thing. So there was a lot of stress and so, needless to say, the six months of officer training I spent pretty much constant pain. I had something. It was either knee pain, back pain I had, I think I got hip bursitis, I had migraines, I had like the whole gamut all the way through there and I never really thought about the fact that I just wasn't allowed to be myself fact that I just wasn't allowed to be myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, are you familiar with the authenticity and attachment to Gabo Mate's work? Yes, everything you're saying is just making me think of this, especially with the high school kids, because, well, for anyone that's listening that isn't aware, authenticity and attachment are the two most important things for humans. But attachment is like we need to be attached to the community or to our parents or to whatever, and we will always um put attachment ahead of authenticity. So if, if it means like I can't, I need to not be myself in order to fit in and have attachment, then so be it. I will get rid of being myself, and I think that's where I enjoy the strengths of this so much, because for so many people with chronic pain, they've stopped being their authentic self to fit in with the family or to fit in with their job or whatever, and I think, helping them to pull back out this authentic personality traits that they've had their whole entire lives.
Speaker 2:It's so good when they see it and they're like oh yeah, I used to be like that. I'm like no, you still are like that. It's just you're putting so much effort in to suppressing who you are. It's exhausting to suppress who you are. So it's like, I don't know, like getting a diamond and polishing it as you see, as I see them kind of coming, coming alive more and more. But I wish all students at high school did this. Imagine like everyone, just be authentically themselves and still be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and on top of you know hormones and all the other things that happen as you're going through school, so what was you know? You've been doing this for how long?
Speaker 2:Do you know what this is so funny? Seven years and seven months. And I only know that because today I did a post on the, I think it was. I did my newsletter and I wrote I, I came up with a company name and a logo and I launched it and I said, after seven years and seven months, I finally chosen a name. And what was the name? Oh, it's Lab.
Speaker 2:Because, yeah, I've been umming and ahhing for so long and I think recovery is the whole thing. Like I don't help people manage pain, like I don't tend to take on a client who really just wants to manage pain, like it is about recovery, like I'll get you over the finish line, you know. And then lab, it's just. I just love lab because it's so scientific, this whole thing it's science. There's no woo-woo in it, it's pure science. So, yeah, I'm so happy. You know, I've procrastinated on this name for like years and years and years, and then in the end, like right, that's it, I'm doing it, and then within 24 hours I've got a logo and everything and it's done fantastic.
Speaker 1:See, that's what happens, right. No, no resistance, you just flow into it. So yeah in, so in the seven years and seven months seven months what has been probably the most challenging and most rewarding case that you've had oh gosh, that's such a good question.
Speaker 2:Do you know? The most rewarding cases are the ones where I know there's a knock-on effect, like a mom that can get back to being with the kids and the kids will benefit because of the mom, you know, getting over chronic pain. I had a case during COVID where a young lady couldn't get pregnant for various, uh, physical reasons, um, and by the end of covid she had a baby. That was like for me, that was a big one. I was. I was really really happy with that. Um, I also really really enjoy, uh, I really enjoy it today again.
Speaker 2:Today, when I said about the name in my mail list somebody, they said oh, you know, I'm, I'm, ever since we spoke, I'm, uh, I'm doing so much better. I'm sorry I never signed up for coaching. I just don't think I need it and I'm like that's brilliant because I only have limited hours in the week. If, if, you can heal yourself, amazing, I feel like sending a little award or something like that. That for me, when I have like the, the lady with the migraines that I told you about like that is magical, really magical.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know. I just all of them are good. The challenging and that's a hard one. For me, the most challenging part is before I start working with the client. From that they have the discovery call. We know that, we know they're going to go ahead, and then there's like a week before you know we're there doing all the onboarding forms and stuff. And then, and I have this little voice in my head head but what if you can't help them? But what if you can't help them?
Speaker 2:and I always get this annoying little gremlin voice and then I think it's not about me helping them. It's like it. They're everyone's unique and different and they come to every client different and it all just works out. There's no magic cut, cut, cut a process. I put everyone through it's, it's just worked itself out. I would say yeah, that's probably the challenging part is before I start. But then, once the first session is done, it's like yeah, then it's, it's great, it's easy.
Speaker 1:It's you know, I, and I, I think it's easy, you know it's, it feels, you know it's just or maybe it's us again simple but not easy. Um, it's. It's very simple because once you become a believer and I know that you know, it's like the church of tms um. But once you become a believer and really understand, you know that you're kind of responsible for how you feel, right, whatever it may be. That's, that's the, the like. It's almost like your job is to help people believe themselves, right. It's like, yes, you're providing some, you know, extra knowledge, but it always goes back to, like, what I'm feeling in my heart, in my soul, and you, you know, I guess, witnessing it and acknowledging that it's there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like. It's like I'm a mirror for the things they don't know, they're not saying, or afraid to admit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, somehow it's like almost like a magic mirror. So like, for example, just last week actually, we were talking about health anxiety and I said where, on a scale of one to ten, do you think your health anxiety is? And she gave me a number and I said what would it take for that, for you to lower that to a different number, a lower number? And she said, well, when my symptoms are better, then it will be lower. I was like that and as she is answering the question, I can hear see the penny dropping and she's like, oh, I need to lower my health anxiety first and then the body will look after itself.
Speaker 2:I was like, yes, but of course that would have been in the book she read and that would have been on podcast. She'd listened to and and and. But it's that moment where she figured out herself and then it she like super, internalized it and I know she'll do great because she just got it like, oh, it's just yeah. So sometimes it's the mirror bouncing questions back, like things useful when you're with someone that can do that, you know yeah, well, don't shortchange yourself that that's a very it's an important piece.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, yes, I appreciate the mirror, but I think that you know there is a certain skill that you have and you know, whoever somebody may see, that is, you know. I guess the only way I could say it is cutting through the bullshit, right and just but doing it in a way that fosters and supports the person toward their ultimate goal. Right Is is that and you know, so I I don't know I would say I appreciate it. It would definitely be more than a mirror, because I think that you know, just seeing who you are and the things that you're saying, you honor people and you let them have their space, and that's important.
Speaker 2:Do you know I merged first and foremost. I'm trained as an ICF coach, so, like I learned to coach by the book. When you learn to coach that you're not allowed to give advice, it's a very like there's a specific way that you're coaching and I love coaching and so there's a use for it, right. But I think what I love about this work specifically this work is I can have so much fun with clients like we're laughing. I think, like this is something that when I did that in g's PRT course with the somatic tracking, when I do somatic tracking, you know it's like when you get people to focus on their body, what does it feel like? What shape is it? And you know, and I've always joked with clients like they'll say, oh, it feels like a jug of vinegar, and I'm like, oh, really, Malt vinegar or cider vinegar.
Speaker 2:You know, like I just, I just, we just have a lot of fun, and I always felt really guilty because that's like really not the proper way of coaching. But then when I saw Alan Gordon doing that, I was like he has a lot of fun as well and he actually talked about the importance of humor and having people relax and stuff. So now, ever since doing the PRT course, I've really leaned into that even more. So I'm yeah, I find the sessions super enjoyable.
Speaker 1:That's great. No, that that makes total sense. So what's next for you?
Speaker 2:oh, what's next? Um, so I am heading back to the UK for the summer and the reason, one of the reasons I did this work is because I can do it remotely, so every summer, and because I'm an expatriate. We live in Dubai and we head back every summer and every Christmas, so I'm looking forward this year to working through the summer with clients. Um, and when we come back, I'm not sure, I'm not sure I I'm talking with a few uh, medical, uh places here in Dubai, um, a couple of insurance companies and things I'm hoping to do some kind of partnership or something like that.
Speaker 2:Um, but you know, I've never been happier, like I just have the perfect balance now. I just, yeah, just everything's fallen into place. I love what I do and love helping people. Do you know what I might start doing? I might start collecting a collage of photos of clients doing what they love to do after they get better. So like people winning marathons and playing golf, playing paddle dancing, like I have the, you know, like when you're in a doctor's clinic, when you're having a baby, and you look around the wall and there's pictures of babies everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have this vision of like an office full of pictures of clients with doing what they should be doing. You know that's on my list to start collecting that collage.
Speaker 1:I think that's wonderful, I mean, it's again, it's, it's just that joy, right. And sometimes people with pain, especially somebody who's in the beginning of their journey, may not see that and may not understand. Like, oh, I can get back to, you know, picking up my children, you know, right, which is a lot of things that I hear and it's very interesting, like I've noticed that there's a lot of moms with back pain and and I don't, you know, and I don't know because that didn't happen from, and you know, of course, I had migraines, your back pain, my migraine, you know, whatever it is, you know cause there is a certain amount of stress to parenting and I think that women especially, you know, bear a burden that's very different, you know of that. You know gotta be perfect and you know, do all the things too and and be the perfect model parent on top of it.
Speaker 1:And then, as well, as you know, sometimes we're home a little bit more often and you know, but shout out to all the dads that are doing the same thing, you know. But it's just. It's interesting to me that it seems, with the arrival of children, a lot of times there's the arrival of a chronic pain condition 100%, you know 100%.
Speaker 2:If I can give a quick parenting example Actually it was a father rather than a mother, but it applies the same there's a lot of weird bending with children, like the motion of picking a child out of a bath when they're all wet and slippery.
Speaker 2:This involves a lot of what maybe core strength, I don't know but like you're bending in a weird way to lift a baby out of a bath, right, um, and so you know, this client I was working with, he got the science like instantly, like it just made sense to him.
Speaker 2:So I said we're talking about how he needs to be mindful when he's altering his posture because he thinks he has back pain. You know, right, I said you know what, try this week doing what you always would have done if you didn't have back pain. And and he said, when I reached for the baby to get out of the bath, I noticed I was about to do it in the old man style, you know, like as if he had back pain. And then he was like I corrected myself and I did it properly, um, and and he was like it was amazing because I thought I would have symptoms and I didn't, because I now have the knowledge that's actually nothing to worry about. So I think it's really important to not compensate on bending and stuff and instead do what you always would have done, with confidence, knowing you're going to be fine.
Speaker 1:Right, well, and so you know, as you're talking about that, I was thinking about Ben Patrick here, who does this type of workout. It's called ATG, where it's the athletic training group, and he talks about like full motion through exercise. And one of the things that has come up, and he has this one gentleman and I can't remember his name who has back pain and we talk about how, especially in the United States, there's always about this idea of bracing your core when you're lifting right. So if I'm bending over to get a child, I, you know, push my backside out and I keep my core stiff and I, you know, pick up the child that way and how. That's not the way our backs are made, but yet we came up with this concept. And so then I feel like, if I twist a little to the left and then pick up my child, oh, I picked him up wrong or I did whatever.
Speaker 1:And a lot of their exercises are about the full articulation of the spine. So, for instance, there's this one where your toes are up on a slant board and you have weights and you do a deadlift. So you do a straight leg deadlift, you just bend forward to touch your toes and as you come up. You come up as in yoga, where you slowly stack your spine, you know, one vertebra on top of another, and come up, and that this gentleman said that once he started doing that he felt like the strength returning to his spine and then he wasn't having those problems and all the issues and wasn't trying to do everything. And you know, it goes back to that whole piece of like in our brains. We feel like we have to move a certain way or behave a certain way because that's how we avoid injury. But a lot of times that creates injury. And if we just continue to move the way that our bodies are designed to move, then you know and of course, add in the no fear piece, then we're okay.
Speaker 1:You know, and I know I talked about the disc degeneration piece because I have so many people are coming in and they're like oh, I have no cartilage left in my knees. Or my doctor said that you know I have the spinal stenosis and you know whatever. And I said you know when your body's the best and they kind of look at me and I'm like when you come out of your mom, I'm like that's it. I said the minute you become weight bearing. I'm like your cartilage starts to deteriorate, your ligaments right, like all the things go away.
Speaker 1:So what do you think is going to happen by the time you're 50, 60 years old? It's like, yes, there's not going to be too much cartilage left in your knees, there's not. You know all those things and it's like, whether or not you choose to like focus on that and make that a problem, that's on you, you know. And then they go, oh, all right, and then they get it a little bit because you know, but they hear the doctors say those things and they get really frightened about that. You know, like I have to pick up everything properly and and be, stiff to pick up?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was asked I do, I do corporate workshops. And I was asked could I do an ergonomics workshop? I was like I could do an anti-ergonomics workshop. I was like there is no way I'm gonna do a workshop telling you you need a standing desk and a fancy chair and your wrists at a certain angle, like I could teach all of your employees why that's false, right I?
Speaker 1:did your four thousand dollar chair. That's shocking.
Speaker 2:They didn't want you yeah, they weren't ready for that one, but uh, yeah, no, it's. It's funny. You know, on the on the on piece, I I had back pain every day at 7 15 night, every single day, because that was bedtime, uh, for kids when they were little. And this was around the time I was discovering a whole mind body thing. And it was so interesting because I thought I had back pain because I was tired, I'd been working all day. Then I come home and then I have to do this bedtime and I'm physically tired and my back's hurting.
Speaker 2:And then I realized, if you think about my personality, you know, going back to that thing, I have a strength called achiever, which means I just want to tick jobs off. I love, I love task lists, I love ticking jobs off. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And bedtime was a task and I just wanted to tick it off at 7 15. But my six month old and my one year old, they didn't understand this. So there was a lot of like laughing around at bedtime, around at bedtime, and I'm like they can't take off the job. And it was that feeling of like not be able to use that strength of achiever at bedtime that was causing. But the minute I realized this it was. It was like chalk and cheese. Is that what you say? You know, like opposite, like oh yeah, is that the British phrase?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it like oh yeah, yeah, is that the?
Speaker 2:British phrase yeah, yeah. And then I realized like I cannot use this strength at bedtime, I need to use it from one. And then I started like doing fun things on the way to bed, like we would pretend to be, hide under a blanket and do stupid things. And suddenly bedtime became fun and I had no back pain anymore. But it was just joining these dots of like oh yes, that's why the back pain, you know yeah, no, that's, that's.
Speaker 1:That's a great realization. I love that I had it. So I've um recently adopted another dog and he's nine months old and I was trying to make him go to the bathroom and do all the things that he needed to do before he had to go to bed. And it was so funny. So I had so much tension, like I could feel it building up in me, and I was so pissed off at him last night because he wouldn't go to bathroom, even though he probably didn't need to go, but he wouldn't go and do the things I wanted him to do. And I was texting with a girlfriend and you know she's like well, you know he's probably going to be okay and you know I thought about it, I was like but I want him to do what I want to do. And then I just laughed because it's like what are you doing Now? Like kids and animals are unable to be contained. You know you have to. I mean, yes, yes, we give them boundaries, right, right for safety, but the reality is, is they're going to do whatever they're going to do?
Speaker 1:My oldest, my oldest daughter. We'd put her to bed and she'd come out I'm thirsty and then she'd come back, I love you, and she'd come in and out of that room like 25 times you, you know, because it was probably not the right bedtime for her. But I didn't know and I used to get so frustrated with her because I was like I don't understand why you just can't lay down and it's like, can you try to sleep when you're not tired? You know, like, how many of you have tried to lay down and force yourself to sleep when you're not tired? I mean, it's impossible. So imagine being, imagine being, you know five or six, and you know, and then having these people tell you to do it and you know that's not something that you're capable of doing, like you know. So now you know the.
Speaker 1:The adjustment for anything right is to look at it and go. How ridiculous are you being, you know, and I think for me, saying it outside, saying it out loud, like I want him to do what I want him to do, oh, that's great, like, let me know how that works for you, right? Because again, you can't make children do what you want them to do. You can't make animals, do you know? I mean, I guess you can make animals do it and I guess you can make children, but not my personality Right, I'm not beating anybody into submission to get them to do what.
Speaker 2:I want. Well, it's also interesting because, let's say, we go down this route of, like you will do what I want you to do, eventually a child will be like, okay, fine, I will follow the rules, I will be a perfect child, but I bet by the time they're in their twenties they've got chronic pain.
Speaker 1:Exactly yes.
Speaker 1:And that's my youngest Right and I don't know if I necessarily did that, but she picked up on the tms personality like nobody's business, you know, and that's she's, you know, in their 20s and she's actually better now. Uh, but they're, you know, because we're talking about language and we're talking about, you know. The questions are about like, what are you feeling? But you know, she probably started around eight years old having um abdominal migines. So she'd had this stomach pain and you know we did, and she'd have heart palpitations. And we've done all the tests and all the things and and whatever, trying to figure out what it was. And I didn't know, and you know I mean at least I was a good mom to like rule all those other things out, but the reality is is that she just wanted to be perfect, you know, and that's a shitty thing to have to go through life you know, wanting to achieve, because there's just no, there's just no way to do that and you know so.
Speaker 1:Hopefully she. You know I told her my goal is that she doesn't have to wait 35 years to figure out what's wrong with her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But what I'm noticing is that a lot of that stuff isn't coming up. And a couple of weeks ago she had a panic attack and so there was a conversation. You know, it's like I understand, this is really scary, what's going on. And then she was able to say, like these are all the things that are happening right now. You know, and now there's and then there was no discussion about it anymore right, it just let it go where before would have been a cycle of them? You know where it would have been like how many days in a row.
Speaker 1:And you know, and I think that's the ultimate goal of this and the work that we do is that, you know, I don't want people to suffer for 10 years. I don't want people to suffer for 10 years. I don't want people to suffer for 30 years. I don't. You know if, and honestly, if, we can be authentically ourselves. You know, there's so many things that we're capable of, and that's the beautiful thing, right, is that? You know, like you said, it's like walking into you know, nobody walks into you know an OB's office and goes, wow, look at all these happy babies, this sucks. It's like you're just so excited, right? So somebody walking into your space and seeing all these happy people you know participating in activities and so proud of themselves after being you know bedridden, or you know floor ridden, or you know wherever anybody may be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I'm excited. I'm excited about space and where it's going to go and I dream about the day this is taught in schools. You know, I think there's so much potential teaching children like how to regulate themselves with breathing and I know a lot of schools already are doing this like what, what emotion are you feeling now? And giving them some choices, with pictures of different faces and it's okay to be angry. And oh, have you seen the new inside out 2 movie?
Speaker 1:it's on my list is it?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I've had fully grown adult clients say to me that watched it and they've had emotional like realizations. So I can't wait. We're watching over the summer but yeah, with movies like this and and stuff I I reckon we'll get there we'll get there well, jemma.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate our time together and uh, how can people get in touch with you?
Speaker 2:that's right, I oh, just my website. It's jemma mcfallcom. Um, I'm also on linkedin for any anyone that's on linkedin and I'm. I'm also on facebook and instagram, but the main place, honestly, is probably the website. Yeah, okay, well, thank you so much. Thank you, it's. I've loved it, thank you.
